Talk:Distro/irc20050816-moved

Session Start: Tue Aug 16 19:22:09 2005 Session Ident: #freegeek-distro [7:22pm] (%) Now talking in #freegeek-distro. [7:22pm] [7:22pm] Joins: tymp (n=tblernk@71-35-120-178.tukw.qwest.net) [1 user] [7:22pm] (%) Join synced in 0.735 Seconds. [7:22pm] (%) Total: 2 Operators: 1(50%) Voices: 0(0%) [7:22pm] (%) Channel Modes: +sn [7:22pm] (%) Created on Tuesday, August 16th, 2005 at 7:18pm [7:22pm] [7:22pm] Joins: fgoly (n=fgoly@66.228.198.205) [3 users] [7:23pm] [7:23pm] Joins: gate99 (n=gate@cpe-24-160-177-47.columbus.res.rr.com) [4 users] [7:24pm] [7:24pm] Joins: meho (n=matteo@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) Clone: vagrantc [5 users] [7:24pm] (%) vagrantc changes topic to 'agenda?' [7:24pm] (gate99): it looks so much better than gnome on fb3 ;) [7:25pm] [7:25pm] hope u did not user the testing deps I posted lasted night, boy are they broken [7:25pm] agenda: evaluation of fb3 as it stands [7:25pm] [7:25pm] I am representing the Fluxbox constituents in spirit [7:25pm] agenda: prospects for development integration among freegeeks [7:26pm] [7:26pm] agenda: "profile" [7:26pm] [7:26pm] name change? [7:26pm] gate99 : no, i used freebox/sarge [7:26pm] [7:26pm] agenda: "profile" types [7:26pm] [7:26pm] Joins: dave_menninger (n=dave@cpe-65-24-13-66.columbus.res.rr.com) [6 users] [7:26pm] [7:26pm] Ok whoosh sorry to run guys but I hope your meeting goes well [7:26pm] bye ryan [7:26pm] [7:26pm] Hurrah for sleep! [7:26pm] [7:26pm] bye [7:27pm] bah [7:27pm] [7:27pm] Parts: fgoly (n=fgoly@66.228.198.205) ("Leaving") [5 users] [7:27pm] agenda: what else? [7:28pm] [7:28pm] think thats about it [7:28pm] that's 5 [7:28pm] [7:28pm] * vagrantc wishes agenda were a bot to keep track of the agenda [7:28pm] ooh [7:28pm] [7:28pm] agenda: svn, cvs, .....? [7:29pm] is anyone else expected? romdos or firfas? [7:29pm] (meho): aye [7:29pm] [7:29pm] Joins: romdos (n=romsos@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) Clones: meho & vagrantc [6 users] [7:29pm] yeah! [7:29pm] [7:29pm] romdos: haven't seen you in a while :) [7:30pm] [7:30pm] I vote for svn [7:30pm] [7:30pm] vagrantc: some times I don't get on a computer for days [7:30pm] [7:30pm] i think we should have an agenda before discussing items on the agenda. [7:30pm] [7:30pm] vagrantc: things are so freekin busy [7:30pm] [7:30pm] romdos: that's great! [7:30pm] [7:30pm] and that's not so great... [7:30pm] (romdos): wow. days? that's like, eons [7:30pm] [7:30pm] vagrantc: well, I actually want to have time... [7:31pm] [7:31pm] vagrantc: lots of volunteer managment for most of the time these days [7:31pm] such a circus there [7:32pm] [7:32pm] yup [7:32pm] hi dave_menninger, where are you at? [7:32pm] [7:32pm] so... there's already a lot on the agenda... do we want to set up any sort of semi-formal process? [7:33pm] i've never had an irc-meeting. seems like something that could get crazy. [7:33pm] what do you suggest, vagrantc? [7:33pm] or, any ideas? [7:33pm] [7:33pm] I'm in the same boat, don't use irc too much [7:34pm] [7:34pm] Well, what is the main topic? [7:34pm] it can be strange to get accustomed to, lends itself to 20 simultaneous conversations, which .. [7:34pm] [7:34pm] keeping the distro from forking, all on the same track? [7:34pm] is not what we're after [7:34pm] agenda submissions are : [7:34pm] [7:34pm] welcome to FreeGeek! [7:34pm] [7:34pm] the only thing i can think of is designating a facilitatorator, and the faciliatatorator keeping a stack of who gets to speak... [7:35pm] [7:35pm] romdos: the forking issue is definitely an important one that could affect everything else. [7:35pm] [7:35pm]  i'm in columbuc [7:35pm] [7:35pm] facilitatorator (I nominate): vagrantc [7:35pm] [7:35pm] * vagrantc cringes [7:35pm] folks might want to note what they're thinking while waiting [7:35pm] to speak [7:35pm] [7:35pm] vagrantc: we get to poke you when we want to speak!!! [7:35pm] have we all used a stack before? [7:35pm] [7:35pm] i also strongly suggest typing up what you want to say and cutting and pasting it in when you're "called on" [7:36pm] good idea! [7:36pm] dave_menninger : cool. [7:36pm] [7:36pm] does anyone else *want* to be facilitatorator? [7:37pm] [7:37pm] nope [7:37pm] [7:37pm] [7:37pm] [7:37pm] basically... i would suggest prodding the facilitatorator like so: [7:37pm] [7:37pm] vagrantc: hand [7:38pm] eh... i don't know. i prefer, to use those tools if they become necessary, if that doesn't sound too crazy.. [7:38pm] [7:38pm] tymp: which tools? [7:38pm] stack, facilitator [7:38pm] [7:38pm] facilitatorating will keep us on one thread [7:39pm] [7:39pm] there are only 6 of us, how hard can it be [7:39pm] [7:39pm] i predict it will get too crazy in about -0.5 minutes without it. [7:39pm] well, stack, at least. [7:39pm] all for it if it becomes needed. [7:39pm] [7:39pm] i'm with vagrantc [7:39pm] but you guys are used to that. [7:39pm] [7:39pm] this is one of the problems of calling a meeting on such short notice :) [7:39pm] how do you conduct meetings in columbus? [7:39pm] [7:39pm]  i suggest we at least have a short list of topics [7:40pm] [7:40pm] we meet in person [7:40pm] [7:40pm]  so we can avoid straying too far from getting things done [7:40pm] [7:40pm]  like what questions are we here to answer [7:40pm] [7:40pm] tymp: did you compile a list of agenda items so ar? [7:40pm] it is : how is fb3 ; development integration ; profiles ; profile types ; name change ; cvs/svn [7:40pm] i'll go with what you think is best. [7:40pm] gate99 : lol, yeah [7:41pm] no, i concur, dave and vagrant [7:41pm] the list is the agenda items proposed so far [7:41pm] it is : how is fb3 ; development integration ; profiles ; profile types ; name change ; cvs/svn [7:42pm] [7:42pm] hmmm... i would think the "how is fb3" and "development integration" are two issues that affect the direction of everything else [7:42pm] to begin there? [7:42pm] [7:42pm] (see development integration as the forking issue) [7:42pm] agree [7:42pm] [7:42pm] yes [7:43pm] what first? [7:43pm] and how long? [7:43pm] [7:43pm] how is fb3? [7:43pm] [7:43pm] so... how is freekbox3? i would like to hear perspectives from the various freegeek offspring, and possible freegeek-pdx education and tech support, if available [7:43pm] shall we go around w/ impressions? [7:43pm] oi [7:44pm] [7:44pm] impressions sound good to me... [7:44pm] [7:44pm]  i like the fb3 [7:44pm] wait, does everyone know who everyone is? [7:44pm] [7:44pm]  i only installed it once [7:44pm] [7:44pm] * vagrantc slaps forehead [7:44pm] [7:44pm] I always felt it did not provide a very unified look and feel. [7:45pm] [7:45pm] pdx education, the fb3 is diffrent than the fb2 and it is taking documentation some time to update [7:45pm] vagrantc : are you alright :) [7:45pm] [7:45pm] tymp: introductions might be a good thing. [7:45pm] check in! [7:46pm] [7:46pm] * meho is matteo in pdx [7:46pm] i am rob.. baxter, in olympia washington, fgoly.org [7:46pm] we are 8 months old [7:46pm] [7:46pm] * vagrantc is in neuvo mexico, but is closest to fg pdx [7:46pm] [7:46pm] * dave_menninger is in columbus [7:46pm] [7:46pm] I'm Greg Sidelinger from FreeGeek Columbus. I'm the primary force behind coding changes to freekbox here [7:46pm] we get to have fairly close contact with portland because it's 2 hours away [7:46pm] [7:46pm] romdos is: Dave from fg-pdx, was build co-coordinator, now production coordinator [7:46pm] [7:46pm] is anyone logging this? and would anyone mind if it were logged? [7:47pm] [7:47pm] log-away! [7:47pm] my client logs everything [7:47pm] [7:47pm] log = scribe = goodidea [7:47pm] [7:47pm] * vagrantc worked extensively onthe freekbox2, and built the freekbox3 installation CD (and some of the software used to make it) [7:48pm] greg: how many developers are on hand in cmh (is that what it's called?) [7:48pm] [7:48pm] romdos did much work on fb3, then ran out of time :( [7:48pm] romdos : last i heard, you were leading the project. is that still accurate? [7:48pm] [7:48pm] so far I'm the only one who has done any work on the distrobution. [7:48pm] me too, for here [7:49pm] [7:49pm] we have a few other people who can code but no one has stepped up [7:49pm] [7:49pm] tymp: not so much, my main problem these days is the huge daily administrative time constriants for fg-pdx, I have such little time that I spend on the distro [7:49pm] but it is looking hopeful for more contrib [7:49pm] romdos : i see [7:49pm] i knew it was somewhat in .. dev hiatus? [7:50pm] [7:50pm] tymp: i really enjoy it when I can [7:50pm] romdos : i've been having much fun w/ it, as time allows [7:50pm] [7:50pm] * vagrantc has 10-20 hours a week to divide between various free software projects [7:50pm] did anyone get my distro msg today [7:50pm] [7:50pm] it got to a place where it does what we need it too, but there is much room for improvement [7:51pm] but vagrantc does tons - at least the cd is a *huge* deal [7:51pm] [7:51pm] tymp: yes, that is the kind of feedback we need! :) [7:51pm] cool! [7:51pm] i meant, though, msg from today.  ? about updates [7:51pm] we are getting off track.  or i am [7:51pm] [7:51pm] i kind of tried to step back on the freekbox3, since i was basically physicially leaving freegeek. [7:52pm] [7:52pm] but i see my role as a guide that nudges things in the right direction :) [7:52pm] [7:52pm] tymp: what was the first item on the agenda [7:52pm] [7:52pm] done with check-in? [7:52pm] heh. it seems that way. (i lurk on the freegeek channel all the time) [7:53pm] [7:53pm] "how is fb3", i think... [7:53pm] i'd like to know a bit more from cmh quick ... how many installs have you done of fb, how much work on freebox. if that's okay.. [7:53pm] (is it cmh?) [7:53pm] [7:53pm] I think [7:53pm] [7:53pm]  yeah, cmh is cool [7:54pm] what does that mean? [7:54pm] [7:54pm] we have only installed on test boxes [7:54pm] [7:54pm]  it's our airpot code [7:54pm] [7:54pm]  like pdx [7:54pm] ah ah [7:54pm] [7:54pm]  i installed freekbox once [7:54pm] have you used the test boxes much? how much dev time? [7:54pm] [7:54pm] pds has done at least 500 installs [7:54pm] [7:54pm] *pdx [7:54pm] only 500? [7:54pm] [7:54pm]  i remember i like the install but had one question i wasnt sure how to answer [7:55pm] [7:55pm]  it was re: initrd [7:55pm] i guess i have done 20-25 [7:55pm] [7:55pm] we have one setup that we use every so often but not that much [7:55pm] [7:55pm] well, I think over 1000 installs [7:55pm] dave_m : what was it? [7:56pm] um, how long do we have here? [7:56pm] [7:56pm] as for our dev efforts I might have 50 or so hours into freebox but most of that is learning my way around gnome and how to use gconf [7:56pm] [7:56pm] how are we all insalling? pdx is using lessdisks-cloner [7:56pm] [7:56pm]  it gave the warning that says you will have to add a line to your lilo.cof unless it is already set up correctly [7:56pm] [7:56pm]  i dont remember what the coice is, but i remember that i chose the opposite, thinking that i had to change something [7:57pm] i was using apt / freekbox_install, now the cd [7:57pm] [7:57pm]  but then i think the default (just pressing Enter) is the correct choise [7:57pm] [7:57pm] dave_menninger: you get this message when? [7:57pm] [7:57pm]  other than that, it was all good [7:57pm] [7:57pm] <dave_menninger> this was during the freekbox_takeover [7:57pm] lilo.conf ?? [7:57pm] [7:57pm] <dave_menninger> it was installing a new kernel i believe [7:58pm] [7:58pm] dave_menninger: so you did a base debian install... installed the freekbox3-takeover package, and ran freekbox3_install ? [7:58pm] [7:58pm] <dave_menninger> right [7:58pm] [7:58pm] dave_menninger: did you have lilo or grub for your boot-loader? [7:59pm] [7:59pm] <dave_menninger> i guess lilo [7:59pm] [7:59pm] maybe now is not the time for troubleshooting? [7:59pm] dave_menninger : are you on the distro list? [7:59pm] [7:59pm] <dave_menninger> yeah [7:59pm] [7:59pm] dave_menninger: hmmm, never tried it with lilo! (I forgot about it) [7:59pm] cool [8:00pm] me neither [8:00pm] [8:00pm] <dave_menninger> in any case, i only brought it up because i followed instructions i found on our webite [8:00pm] [8:00pm] sarge installer even supports lilo? [8:00pm] [8:00pm] <dave_menninger> and they didnt mention whether lilo or grub was appropriate [8:00pm] [8:00pm] not by default anymore. [8:01pm] it should mention grub then, eh? [8:01pm] [8:01pm] <dave_menninger> i guess so [8:01pm] can we time check, and hit the agenda now? [8:01pm] [8:01pm] tymp: yup [8:01pm] [8:01pm] <dave_menninger> in order to avoid asking the user that confusing tech question [8:01pm] yeh [8:02pm] when do we have to be done with this? i have an hour or so.. [8:02pm] or more, but that sounds long [8:02pm] [8:02pm] we've gotten a lot of feedback on the install process... but the big question i have is to the User Interface ... is it good enough? [8:02pm] [8:02pm] an hour or so sounds good to me [8:03pm] vagrantc : indeed [8:03pm] [8:03pm] I think the user interface needs some tuning [8:03pm] [8:03pm] <dave_menninger> i'll admit i didnt use the machine for along period of time, but the UI seemed fine by me [8:03pm] ... i changed a lot of the ui [8:04pm] well, certain things - anti-aliasing, window decoration, icon positions [8:04pm] [8:04pm] Think the menu needs cleaned up a lot. KDE normally has a pretty cluttered menu. [8:04pm] [8:04pm] this reminds me of all the stuff we did with debian-np about defining user personae and user-oriented design... [8:04pm] [8:04pm] the adopters here love it (comparing it to the fb2) [8:04pm] [8:04pm] most people could care less if Kruler is installed [8:04pm] [8:04pm] * vagrantc agrees about the cluttered menu [8:04pm] [8:04pm] Joins: Karinu (n=karinu@c-24-21-227-33.hsd1.or.comcast.net) [7 users] [8:05pm] cluttered? like too much stuff? disorganized? is that kde? or fb [8:05pm] i have grown accustomed to it [8:05pm] [8:05pm] a lot of it is just the default kde sutff [8:05pm] [8:05pm] kde, it throws in everything to the menu [8:05pm] [8:05pm] i think it is KDE... one of the design goals of freekbox3 was to alter as little as possible from freekbox3... as a maintenance-saver. [8:05pm] [8:05pm] (as i understand it) [8:06pm] [8:06pm] yup [8:06pm] [8:06pm] <dave_menninger> i personally dont have a problem with the default KDE stuff [8:06pm] [8:06pm] er, as little as possible from debian [8:06pm] [8:06pm] I understand it but if done right you can avoid the maintanance [8:06pm] [8:06pm] gate99: that brings us to the next topic :) [8:06pm] lol [8:07pm] yes, what can be done? [8:07pm] [8:07pm] I'm not sure how kde handles its menu. anyone know if they fallow the opendesktop.org spec [8:08pm] what's needed to coordinate? [8:08pm] kde menu... is mainly one file, isn't it? little research topic [8:08pm] [8:08pm] technical discussions could take hours... it might be good to try and decide where we want to go, and how we want to try and get there... [8:08pm] as i recall, it's well documented [8:08pm] [8:08pm] <dave_menninger> do we have a consensus that the kde menu even needs to be altered? [8:09pm] i think stuff said in recent distro mails... [8:09pm] [8:09pm] dave_menninger: i wouldn't say we have total agreement on that. some think it's cluttered, some think it's fine. [8:09pm] [8:09pm] it is messy, but it gives people a window into all the possabilites before them [8:09pm] dave_menninger : i don't know [8:09pm] [8:09pm] <dave_menninger> i just wouldnt want people to do a lot of work on it if they didnt have to [8:09pm] i would rather list what is desired and see what time/energy/skill is available [8:09pm] [8:09pm] * vagrantc agrees [8:10pm] [8:10pm] <dave_menninger> i mean what is the exact justification from the perspective of a user? [8:10pm] [8:10pm] which user? [8:10pm] [8:10pm] there is no "user", there are many individuals who will be exposed to our systems [8:10pm] [8:10pm] <dave_menninger> how does kde fair in the ~1000 installations in pdx? [8:10pm] [8:10pm] who have different needs, desires, etc. [8:11pm] [8:11pm] dave_menninger: very little problems [8:11pm] [8:11pm] <dave_menninger> er, fare [8:11pm] [8:11pm] * vagrantc will re-post to the distro list some of the user-oriented-design stuff learned from debian-edu [8:11pm] [8:11pm] <dave_menninger> that was the impression i got [8:11pm] [8:11pm] <Karinu> Well, keep in mind that people aren't likely to look any deeper than the menu; anything that isn't there might as well not be installed as far as most are probably concerned... [8:11pm] [8:11pm] everyone hates kppp [8:11pm] karinu : good point [8:12pm] i love it, because i've never used it :) [8:12pm] [8:12pm] Karinu: curious where you're from... you may have missed the check-in :) [8:12pm] [8:12pm] <Karinu> It seems to me like the Desktop is being used as the less cluttered list of common tasks [8:12pm] [8:12pm] with freekbox2, that was largely the vision. [8:13pm] Karinu : we have a little agenda.. we're on... where are we? [8:13pm] [8:13pm] desktop is simple interface, menu is slightly more complex, and there was an often un-used ability to switch between a complex and simple menu. [8:14pm] [8:14pm] though we were going to be moving onto the development integration [8:14pm] in this hour, can we conclude some things about what aspects need adressing [8:14pm] i think each of them would be complex issues in itself [8:14pm] [8:14pm] <Karinu> I'm at Portland, I actually just dropped in to see what was going on since a project I'm doing relates to distro. [8:14pm] [8:14pm] Karinu: thanks :) [8:15pm] have you used freekbox much, Karinu? [8:15pm] [8:15pm] <dave_menninger> so, i guess the reason i'm here is simply to say that if we're gonna make design choices about the menu and entertain the possibility of forking then we should try and be as clear as we can be about why we're creating more work for ourselves and varying from the defualt [8:15pm] [8:15pm] * vagrantc agrees with dave_menninger [8:15pm] * tymp too! [8:15pm] [8:15pm] forking is a *lot* of work. [8:15pm] sounds exhausting [8:16pm] forking does [8:16pm] [8:16pm] <dave_menninger> it's ok to do whatever kinds of customizations we dem necessary [8:16pm] [8:16pm] <Karinu> Not much outside of doing QC/Build just yet. I've worked with KDE a fair bit, but I'm new to the Freekbox distro [8:16pm] [8:16pm] <dave_menninger> it's not out of the question that KDE has it's deficiencies [8:16pm] do we have an adequate forum to discuss it fluidly? [8:16pm] is the distro list good for it? [8:16pm] need something else, i think [8:16pm] [8:16pm] <dave_menninger> but i'd say that for each change we introdue, let's have an explicit reason for it [8:16pm] is there comfort with the wiki? [8:17pm] [8:17pm] * vagrantc generally hates wiki's for dynamic discussion [8:17pm] [8:17pm] I just spent some time moving all the logic into takeover.py and it now allows use to specify a package list and decide what entries from configs/ we want to actually use [8:17pm] the more thoroughly we can be able to discuss each change, the better [8:17pm] [8:17pm] that way we can all have our little customizations but the same base [8:18pm] [8:18pm] gate99: very cool [8:18pm] vagrantc : but the wiki can be good for posting progress, and tracking issues [8:18pm] [8:18pm] tymp: wiki's are good for summarizing discussions of other methods [8:19pm] methods? of doing things in the os? [8:20pm] [8:20pm] methods: mailing list, irc, etc. [8:20pm] gate99 : that sounds like a boon. will it be lasting [8:20pm] vagrantc : ah [8:20pm] [8:20pm] tymp: what [8:20pm] gate99 : "we can all have our little customizations but the same base" [8:21pm] [8:21pm] i feel like the customization technologies used in freekbox3/freebox are ugly hacks that will lead us to some terrible headaches. [8:21pm] i feel that way too [8:21pm] so there's another : clean up the means of altering things within fb [8:22pm] [8:22pm] basically, we've already forked too much from debian itself. [8:22pm] there is such chaos here, in oly, the idea of standardization is very comforting to me [8:22pm] [8:22pm] * vagrantc was involved in these bad technological decisions [8:22pm] [8:22pm] distro group long ago decided to move towards debian-np [8:22pm] * tymp forgives vagrantc and co [8:22pm] [8:22pm] have not done it yet [8:23pm] [8:23pm] we lost our way [8:23pm] [8:23pm] debian-np is basically talking about grabbing freekbox3 and calling it debian-np desktop :) [8:23pm] why? [8:23pm] [8:23pm] <dave_menninger> what ever ended up happening with debian-np as far as improving thos customization techniques [8:23pm] meho : why? [8:23pm] [8:23pm] vagrantc: cool! [8:23pm] vagrantc : what would that mean? [8:24pm] [8:24pm] dave_menninger: well, i developed simple-cdd as a result of debian-np/freegeek coordination [8:24pm] [8:24pm] well It seams like a big jump is what i ment [8:24pm] [8:24pm] dave_menninger: which resulted in a freekbox3 installer CD [8:24pm] [8:24pm] tymp: what it means is debian-np is stagnant and looking for others to do the work, but would give those folks more exposure [8:25pm] ok. [8:25pm] [8:25pm] <dave_menninger> so could we build a set of various distro customizations on debain-np in such a way as to accomodate things like cleaning up kde's menu? [8:25pm] [8:25pm] there is a lot of discussion and development of customizing tools as part of debian-custom [8:25pm] would *that* be a big change of course, vagrantc? [8:26pm] [8:26pm] dave_menninger: that would be an excellent route to go. [8:26pm] vagrantc : do you have ... like a blog-type thing [8:26pm] [8:26pm] tymp: not really. [8:26pm] consolidated info about what you've ... no? [8:27pm] i think that it would be great help to have what is in your head spread around as much as possible.. [8:27pm] [8:27pm] vagrantc: we want to know sll you are involved in! [8:27pm] [8:27pm] * vagrantc likes a little privacy [8:28pm] i've begun to get a picture... but [8:28pm] lol [8:28pm] privacy is so 20th century [8:28pm] [8:28pm] ha! [8:28pm] ;) [8:28pm] [8:28pm] but yes... this last year i have become increasingly involved in numerous other projects. [8:28pm] [8:28pm] <dave_menninger> so, to build ourselves some debain-nps what would have to be done? [8:28pm] [8:28pm] there is much overlap. [8:28pm] [8:28pm] (debian-np == debian-nonprofit project) [8:29pm] [8:29pm] <dave_menninger> i was only the mailing list for debain-np for a while, i dont remember whether i unsuscribed or whether the trafic died down [8:29pm] [8:29pm] it mostly just gets weird spam these days. [8:29pm] [8:29pm] <dave_menninger> i dont actually know aboout how it works technically speaking [8:30pm] [8:30pm] http://debian-np.alioth.debian.org/ [8:30pm] so that is one option... eh? debian-np [8:30pm] does debian-np branch much from debian? [8:30pm] [8:30pm] debian-np is more an idea than anything... [8:30pm] i need to take a break.  typing makes me hungry [8:31pm] [8:31pm] the only stuff really done by debian-np lately is hosting the freekbox3 installer CD :) [8:32pm] [8:32pm] so.... [8:32pm] [8:32pm] ya, their news section is 1 item long and over 2 years old [8:32pm] [8:32pm] <dave_menninger> it sounds like conceptually the ideas we'd like to use are all present in debian-np, but perhaps they don't really have much to offer us in the way of tools [8:32pm] [8:32pm] debian-custom is much more active. [8:33pm] [8:33pm] and debian-edu [8:33pm] [8:33pm] http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/ [8:33pm] [8:33pm] so what good tools does that provide [8:33pm] [8:33pm] vagrantc: I agree, debian-custom [8:34pm] [8:34pm] currently, there is someone actively working on cddtk, "Custom Debian Distribution Tool Kit" [8:34pm] [8:34pm] it has much promise... [8:34pm] [8:34pm] I like what I read allready just from the flavor section [8:34pm] [8:34pm] so is it active or stale [8:35pm] [8:35pm] is what active? [8:35pm] [8:35pm] debian-custom [8:35pm] [8:35pm] there is considerable activity on the mailing list, some activity on irc... [8:36pm] [8:36pm] debian-edu is also very active, and is probably the most complete CDD out there. [8:36pm] [8:36pm] http://skolelinux.org [8:37pm] [8:37pm] debian-edu cd installs are very nice, only a few questions [8:37pm] um, what is the feeling toward knoppix? [8:38pm] or, better question, how much is knoppix branched from debian? [8:38pm] [8:38pm] knoppix is unmaintainable, ugly hacks, and little of it will ever possibly be merged into debian. [8:38pm] i see. too bad. [8:38pm] [8:38pm] morphix is much more viable, and more actively works towards merging into debian. [8:38pm] i should research. [8:38pm] okay [8:39pm] [8:39pm] i worked with the morphix author as part of debian-np in debconf4 last year in brasil. [8:39pm] more hardware detection would be nice [8:39pm] (though i suppose debian is getting better on that itself) [8:39pm] [8:39pm] debian-np's first big thing was a livecd based on morphix [8:39pm] [8:39pm] time check, pdx is here for 20 [8:39pm] [8:39pm] where are were in the agenda? :) [8:40pm] i just looked at ibuild today [8:40pm] um [8:40pm] [8:40pm] agenda, good question? [8:40pm] [8:40pm] so what don't we want to do? [8:40pm] [8:40pm] (easier than do) [8:41pm] [8:41pm] go to work tomorrow [8:41pm] [8:41pm] continue to maintain ugly unmaintainable hacks? :) [8:41pm] i can't find it up there... how is fb3, dev integration, profile / profile types, name change, versioning [8:41pm] can we agree that we want to do the opposite of what vagrantc just said? [8:41pm] [8:41pm] gate99: I like work, I work at Free Geek! [8:42pm] lol [8:42pm] more work for everybody! [8:42pm] [8:42pm] I think I have a high fevor right now which is why I don't want to go [8:42pm] [8:42pm] basically... i guess i kind of side-tracked "dev integration" into a broader context of how we should actually maintain our stuff. [8:42pm] [8:42pm] tymp: it may make you creative! [8:43pm] work? [8:43pm] [8:43pm] columbus has svn, pdx has cvs, What is the best path? [8:43pm] [8:43pm] tymp: fever [8:43pm] [8:43pm] (debconf6 will be in mexico this year... freegeek distro folk should go en masse) [8:43pm] that's gate99 ? [8:43pm] [8:43pm] I vote for svn. cvs is a pain [8:43pm] [8:43pm] oops too many threads! [8:43pm] svn would seem to be more forwardlooking [8:44pm] [8:44pm] and its easy to convert to it from cvs [8:44pm] [8:44pm] there is significant infrastructure tied to cvs that we would have to replicate... [8:44pm] i think it is basically whatever gets used (i think the other suggestions would be more work) [8:44pm] vagrantc : but it is said that pdx is moving [8:44pm] to svn [8:44pm] eh, is there a timeline on that at all [8:45pm] ? [8:45pm] [8:45pm] so is its server room... [8:45pm] [8:45pm] we would need: publicly browseable web, anonymous downloads of repository, ssh-key based commits for all developers, buildbot functionality, commit mailinglist [8:45pm] how much of that is implemented? [8:45pm] any? [8:45pm] [8:45pm] in cvs, all of it. [8:45pm] [8:45pm] I know scott in columbus has done some of that stuff for svn [8:45pm] yeah, i know, i mean.. [8:45pm] [8:45pm] (except maybe more developer need access) [8:46pm] [8:46pm] without all of those things, i wouldn't want to switch. [8:46pm] [8:46pm] svn needs publicly browseable web and anonymous downloads of repository at fg-pdx [8:46pm] that's all? [8:47pm] [8:47pm] <Karinu> I know svn has some web service through an Apache module, but I haven't actually set it up yet myself [8:47pm] can we help from outside? [8:47pm] [8:47pm] no builbot yet either [8:47pm] [8:47pm] romdos: also we need svn-cvs only shell [8:47pm] ooook [8:47pm] it's a lot! [8:47pm] sounds like [8:47pm] [8:47pm] yup [8:47pm] can we begin without some of that? or better to just use cvs? [8:48pm] cmh? [8:48pm] [8:48pm] we just need to add three more days to the week, and I can get it done [8:48pm] [8:48pm] ;) [8:48pm] heh. sure. [8:48pm] i really like the idea of using columbus's svn, just for the sake of decentralizing.. [8:48pm] can much, or anything be accomplished with that? [8:48pm] as a group? [8:49pm] [8:49pm] oh, and irc bot commit notifications [8:49pm] especially since fb has not been actively developed lately [8:49pm] ! is None of that just candy?? [8:49pm] [8:49pm] tymp: I like the idea of having it in cmh also [8:50pm] i mean, there is also fgdb, fgdiag, etc, but can one thing be moved? [8:50pm] [8:50pm] the commit notification methods are important... it allows me to keep an eye on development and encourages more people verifying good ideas. [8:50pm] i like that part a lot [8:50pm] [8:50pm] commit emails are pretty easy to get going. [8:50pm] but if there are no fb commits (i dunno, i just got on that list.. but..) [8:50pm] [8:50pm] and irc bots can easily respond to emails. [8:51pm] do fb3 commits go to #freegeek? [8:51pm] [8:51pm] can we get a svn url for the "freebox" svn ? [8:52pm] like svn. ... ? [8:52pm] [8:52pm] freeghttp://freegeekcolumbus.org/devel/freebox/wiki/FreeBox [8:52pm] [8:52pm] all the junk is on that [8:52pm] i think he wants ... for command-line checkout [8:52pm] ? [8:52pm] [8:52pm] yes, i don't want to browse source code with a web browser. [8:52pm] [8:52pm] svn co https://www.skippy.net/SVN/fgcmh/freebox/freebox [8:53pm] [8:53pm] no /trunk, /tags and /branches? [8:53pm] [8:53pm] not yet [8:54pm] [8:54pm] gate99: is it basically freekbox3 cvs forked at a certain point? [8:54pm] [8:54pm] we were going use devert from the suggested subversion layout and not use trunk [8:54pm] [8:54pm] yes, about 2 months ago [8:54pm] [8:54pm] fools! :) [8:55pm] cool. got it. [8:55pm] vagrantc : fools? [8:55pm] [8:55pm] I did some re-integration today [8:55pm] [8:55pm] for not using trunk [8:55pm] ah [8:55pm] [8:55pm] tymp: diverting from suggested layout [8:56pm] [8:56pm] but I think that was a lot of me [8:56pm] gate99 : 'devert' confused me :) [8:56pm] [8:56pm] I just can't spell [8:56pm] [8:56pm] so anyways... [8:56pm] np [8:56pm] eh, no probs [8:56pm] non probits [8:56pm] [8:56pm] gate99: would you be willing to re-create it with an archive built with cvs2svn ? [8:56pm] yeah! [8:57pm] [8:57pm] it would be nice to have the freekbox3 history. [8:57pm] [8:57pm] ya [8:57pm] what does that sound like to you, romdos? [8:57pm] [8:57pm] but then its all hosted on scotts server so I guess we really need to be asking him [8:57pm] [8:57pm] heh. [8:57pm] [8:57pm] * vagrantc likes trac [8:58pm] so i hear :) [8:58pm] [8:58pm] * vagrantc prods romdos [8:58pm] must you start out with trac? can you just lay it on an established repository? [8:58pm] [8:58pm] tymp: which part? [8:58pm] using columbus svn for fb work [8:59pm] [8:59pm] svn at cmh, I like the idea [8:59pm] [8:59pm] tymp: trac can be confiogured to point to any svn repository, i think... [8:59pm] [8:59pm] freekbox at cmh, I like it too [8:59pm] trac is php? [8:59pm] [8:59pm] are there backups? can we get backups synced to freegeek? [8:59pm] that sounds good too [8:59pm] [8:59pm] vagrantc: thats fg-pdx now [9:00pm] [9:00pm] ;) [9:00pm] [9:00pm] * vagrantc feels old [9:00pm] lol [9:00pm] [9:00pm] I'm not sure what the backup schedual is [9:00pm] [9:00pm] I will talk to scott about all this stuff [9:00pm] [9:00pm] freegeek currently has daily backups. it would be extra-cool to get off-site backups. [9:00pm] okay. people will need access... how much? [9:01pm] [9:01pm] i really want ssh key access. [9:01pm] [9:01pm] me too [9:01pm] [9:01pm] 3d that [9:01pm] yeah [9:01pm] [9:01pm] more than I got to the box [9:01pm] [9:01pm] i don't like the idea of my password being stored in a plain-text file with insecure permissions like svn does with https:// archives [9:01pm] okay, maybe that's a hitch [9:02pm] [9:02pm] ya, we really need to talk to scott [9:02pm] [9:02pm] gate99: would you be able to take that on? [9:02pm] [9:02pm] ya, I will do that tomorrow [9:02pm] we should trade emails [9:02pm] rob@fgoly.org [9:03pm] i guess it's all in distro, but yes i'm that lazy (or busy?) [9:03pm] i think i know pdx's [9:03pm] matteo@? [9:03pm] [9:03pm] how many people need write access? [9:04pm] [9:04pm] I'm sure scott will give us all svn write access but not sure about shells [9:04pm] [9:04pm] would be happy with an svn-only shell. [9:04pm] [9:04pm] would not be happy with https:// urls for svn. [9:05pm] 9:04 [9:05pm] oops, too slow [9:06pm] well, what if it won't work? [9:06pm] [9:06pm] the forked code makes it very hard to coordinate. [9:06pm] we'd like everything in one place, no? [9:06pm] [9:06pm] yes [9:07pm] [9:07pm] * vagrantc wants packages that will easily work with simple-cdd [9:07pm] what's the critera for that? [9:07pm] (too bad scott is not here) [9:08pm] [9:08pm] ya, think I need to read up on simple-cdd next week [9:08pm] [9:08pm] so... currently we have the freekbox3 packagesplit into several different parts. [9:08pm] vagrantc : simple-cdd is not too hard to wrap your head around, right? [9:09pm] [9:09pm] tymp: that's the goal :) [9:09pm] oh, right, "simple" :) [9:09pm] [9:09pm] we can split the packages into even more parts if the standard freekbox3 doesn't work for everybody. [9:09pm] so the packages now are not easy for simple-cdd work [9:09pm] ? [9:09pm] or the other way around [9:10pm] [9:10pm] the current 0.1.2 packages are ok, but cvs is better. [9:10pm] [9:10pm] * vagrantc nudges romdos [9:10pm] [9:10pm] * vagrantc dreams of 0.1.3 [9:10pm] columbus : this question i had, why gnome? [9:10pm] [9:10pm] heh [9:10pm] 0.1.3 simple-cdd? [9:10pm] [9:10pm] freekbox3 [9:11pm] it's 0.1.3? [9:11pm] [9:11pm] just feel default gnome provides a more simplied/unified desktop to the non geek [9:11pm] [9:11pm] * vagrantc should make a new release of simple-cdd, soon. [9:11pm] [9:11pm] I type this from kde of course [9:11pm] [9:11pm] freekbox3 is very hard to change in big ways at fg-pdx because the whole education department has to fall in line behind it [9:12pm] gate99 : would you try my adaptations to freekbox? [9:12pm] [9:12pm] isn't it time for beer [9:12pm] [9:12pm] * meho nods [9:12pm] [9:12pm] romdos: we can keep freekbox3 the way it is, but split into more packages... like freekbox3-kde, freekbox3-kde-doc, etc... [9:12pm] [9:12pm] (that was rifras) [9:12pm] so me need a documentation system that works betta [9:12pm] [9:12pm] * vagrantc misses beer:30 [9:12pm] why? [9:12pm] [9:12pm] tymp: sure where can I get them from [9:12pm] * so does tymp [9:13pm] [9:13pm] * romdos get swarmed by coders wanting beer [9:13pm] oof [9:13pm] eh, simplest is to email you [9:13pm] you're greg, posting to distro, right? so.. tomorrow or the next day.. [9:13pm] [9:13pm] yup thats me [9:13pm] there is no such thing as beer [9:13pm] k [9:14pm] [9:14pm] i can try and take the package lists from tymp, and the freebox, and make additional profiles on a simple-cdd debian-installer CD image. [9:14pm] [9:14pm] hopefully it will all fit in 650MB [9:14pm] [9:14pm] tymp: do you mind condencing this into minutes sence you log by defalt [9:14pm] i made pretty significant skel changes.. [9:15pm] no prob [9:15pm] [9:15pm] wow, thanks vagrantc [9:15pm] oh... wait! condense? [9:15pm] i can .. may take a bit [9:15pm] [9:15pm] summerise [9:15pm] yeah... which means, re-read.. [9:16pm] [9:16pm] post the whole log first, and let someone else summarize. [9:16pm] i will put them on the web right now... [9:16pm] [9:16pm] maybe post to a wiki or something? [9:16pm] whoever gets there first [9:16pm] yeah, that makes sense [9:16pm] i'll post a link to distro@ [9:16pm] [9:16pm] tymp: thanks [9:17pm] yip [9:17pm] [9:17pm] yes, thanks tymp [9:17pm] it's just copy/pasting, though [9:17pm] is there any distro pages on your wiki? [9:17pm] [9:17pm] wiki.freegeek.org has a few... [9:17pm] .. can i make you a new wiki icon? [9:17pm] these things bug me [9:18pm] i will not post the minutes unless i can make you a new wiki icon [9:18pm] just kidding [9:18pm] okay, well how was this? pretty good i think [9:18pm] we should do again? [9:18pm] tomorrow? [9:18pm] [9:18pm] I like that things are moving... where they will move... ;) [9:18pm] [9:18pm] heh. [9:19pm] :P [9:19pm] [9:19pm] council tomorrow at fg-pdx [9:19pm] [9:19pm] what abou tuesday evenings? [9:19pm] do we have commitments here, besided gate99's [9:19pm] tuesday, or maybe every other.. [9:19pm] [9:19pm] Distro Night! tuesday evenings. [9:19pm] [9:19pm] i committed to trying to build a new CD [9:19pm] ok [9:20pm] i'll send gate99 my hooha [9:20pm] meho, will you bring snacks next time? [9:20pm] [9:20pm] i also think we should have a freegeek meeting at debian's conference in mexico next may :) [9:20pm] [9:20pm] hooray to that!! [9:20pm] that is far ... mexico ... also may, though [9:20pm] hmm [9:21pm] [9:21pm] would be really cool if we could figure out some sort of sponsorship for it, too. [9:21pm] [9:21pm] yo qeuro a hablar espanol mas [9:21pm] [9:21pm] plug freegeek-ers more into debian project... [9:21pm] [9:21pm] si [9:21pm] yeah!! [9:21pm] (vagrant, romdos, i don't know what you said) [9:21pm] [9:21pm] no recuerdo mucho [9:22pm] er, yeah, vagrant. romdos, what? [9:22pm] [9:22pm] we said We Love Distro!!! [9:22pm] [9:22pm] ;) [9:22pm] gate99 : where are most of your [9:22pm] lol [9:23pm] [9:23pm] ich brauche mehr spanisch sprechen. [9:23pm] distro = recuerdo? [9:23pm] [9:23pm] columbus, oh [9:23pm] ugh [9:23pm] [9:23pm] so mexico is a bit of a drive [9:23pm] [9:23pm] recuerdo= recall, remember [9:23pm] gate99 : where are most of your changes to fb? [9:24pm] distro = ? [9:24pm] [9:24pm] configs/* [9:24pm] [9:24pm] package list [9:24pm] [9:24pm] and takeover.py [9:24pm] [9:24pm] gate99: mexico is a bit of a drive, but it will bring much talent from europe, asia and south america much closer to us. [9:25pm] gate99 : did you remove much of fb3? [9:25pm] [9:25pm] gate99: we shoul perhaps consider a freegeek distro conference, though :) [9:25pm] .. in vegas [9:25pm] [9:25pm] no. [9:25pm] [9:25pm] not really, I tried to move it all backin the last two days [9:25pm] no [9:25pm] so if i run kde.. i'll see [9:26pm] [9:26pm] * romdos has to go [9:26pm] in.. what's right between? [9:26pm] thanks a lot romdos [9:26pm] [9:26pm] next week? more? [9:26pm] for hangin out [9:26pm] ya! [9:26pm] [9:26pm] thanks everyone! [9:26pm] [9:26pm] ya, I need to get running too [9:26pm] [9:26pm] we should try and isolate the differences between freebox, freekbox3, and tymp's tweaks... and figure out what is the same, what is different... and make them into separate, selectable tweaks. [9:26pm] [9:26pm] * meho bikes ot the bar [9:26pm] bye meho [9:26pm] bye gate99 [9:27pm] [9:27pm] * vagrantc ponders a centrally located freegeek meeting [9:27pm] vagrantc : sounds good. [9:27pm] [9:27pm] vagratc, thats what I was working on. think I have it working but did not really get a fresh test in tonight, I just did a blint commit [9:27pm] [9:27pm] it would be really ideal if we could install all three somehow... [9:28pm] [9:28pm] Quits: romdos (n=romsos@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) ("Leaving") [9:28pm] well, for a time, i suppose. mine are intended to be very un-invasive [9:28pm] [9:28pm] i can easily incorporate package selections into simple-cdd profiles. [9:28pm] (as least as un-invasive as fb3) [9:28pm] [9:28pm] tymp: ideally we can merge your changes directly into freekbox3, you think? [9:29pm] [9:29pm] changing to gnome is too different for freegeek-pdx education group, i think. [9:29pm] i do not expect it would be too hard. but it should be taste-tested first [9:29pm] yeah. [9:29pm] [9:29pm] night all [9:29pm] ciao [9:29pm] [9:29pm] gate99 (n=gate@cpe-24-160-177-47.columbus.res.rr.com) is now known as gate-zzzzzzzzzz [9:29pm] [9:29pm] gate99: live well. [9:30pm] that, is a talent for sleeping