Distro/irc20050823


 * date: Aug 23, 2005
 * checkin time: 7-7:15pm PDT -0700 (10-10:15pm EDT)
 * meeting time 7:15pm PDT -0700 (10:15pm EDT)
 * meet in irc.freenode.net #freegeek-distro

Agenda
Suggested Agenda Items (please add):
 * Long-term prognosis - including definition of objectives, estimation of required work, and timeline projection
 * popularity-contest feedback about which packages actually get used
 * user-oriented-design
 * trimming a multi-profile Install CD
 * freekbox3 packaging:
 * building new freekbox3 packages
 * new freekbox3 package archive: Debian_Package_Repositories

Past Commitments:
 * vagrant: re-post to the distro list some of the user-oriented-design stuff learned from debian-np
 * vagrant: explore building a multi-profile installer CD
 * gate99: talk to scott about svn changes (done - negotations for shared use in progress)
 * rob: mail adaptations to greg and others (done)

Previous Agenda:
 * how is fb3
 * development integration
 * profiles (and profile types - separate item??)
 * name change
 * cvs/svn

Log / Summary
[7:03pm] (%) tymp changes topic to 'checkin?' [7:03pm] hi ho [7:03pm] [7:03pm]  tymp: hows oly [7:05pm] seems ok.. we are gettin donations again. after a 3 week void [7:05pm] hows thar [7:06pm] [7:06pm]  chilly [7:11pm] [7:11pm] gate-fixen-myth (n=gate@cpe-24-210-70-207.columbus.res.rr.com) is now known as gate_ [7:13pm] hi gate_ [7:14pm] meho_pdx : really? [7:14pm] [7:14pm]  hello there [7:15pm] [7:15pm] Joins: skippy (n=skippy@two.skippy.net) [6 users] [7:15pm] [7:15pm] there you all are! [7:15pm] ha. fooled you :) [7:15pm] [7:15pm]  tymp: yea I just biked over the windy bridg [7:15pm] meho_pdx : ah, i see. [7:15pm] (%) [7:15pm]  tymp: you should get a freekbox3 with a bunch of extra software [7:16pm] [7:16pm] * vagrantc travels back in time one hour [7:16pm] [7:16pm] that's a handy trick. [7:16pm] [7:16pm] skippy: i bet you've already showed me in in the time travel regard [7:17pm] skippy, what time is it there?  rather late, no? [7:17pm] [7:17pm] 10 PM [7:17pm] [7:17pm]  still early, till u got to get up at 6am [7:17pm] yeah.  time for work! [7:17pm] do you, gate_? [7:17pm] [7:17pm] * vagrantc has the latest, greated, freekbox3 multi-profile installer going ... [7:18pm] vagrantc, i get no kdm installed [7:18pm] [7:18pm] tymp: no installed, or not running? [7:18pm] w/ fgoly [7:18pm] [7:18pm]  sometime around 6 [7:18pm] 'command not found' [7:18pm] [7:18pm] tymp: the fgoly just adds a couple extra packages- it really depends on freekbox3 profile. [7:19pm] gate_, ugh [7:19pm] [7:19pm] so... are we started, or late? [7:19pm] vagrantc : i see, that's not clear from the prompts [7:19pm] [7:19pm] * vagrantc yells for romdos [7:19pm] we are a little late [7:19pm] [7:19pm] tymp: no, it's a temporary hack. [7:19pm] [7:19pm]  romdos is closing :( [7:20pm] is anyone at fgmothership? [7:20pm] [7:20pm]  tymp: that be me [7:20pm] vagrantc : so the multi-installer is testing [7:20pm] [7:20pm] tymp: my first goal was to figure out how to fit everything on a CD ... many tweaks left to do. [7:20pm] [7:20pm] tymp: testing ? [7:20pm] right on. wasn't sure about it [7:20pm] okay, say 'alpha' [7:21pm] 'in a testing stage' [7:21pm] [7:21pm] tymp: the only profile that actually works like it should is "freekbox3", since it's the one that's gotten the most work. [7:21pm] alrighty [7:21pm] [7:21pm] tymp: the rest are just currently package dependencies... [7:22pm] a few addons?  so fb3 is prerequisite to gnome and fgoly? [7:22pm] [7:22pm]  so far the agenda: Long-term prognosis, popularity-contest, user-oriented-design, trimming a multi-profile Install CD, freekbox3 packaging [7:22pm] [7:22pm]  I'm hoping to play with the gnome one next week after things settle down from the move [7:23pm] [7:23pm] tymp: well, the freekbox3-gnome is a complete package list, but no debconf selections or postinstall script. [7:23pm] shall we wait for romdos, or no? [7:23pm] [7:23pm] tymp: since there was a complete package list provided for "freebox" [7:23pm] [7:23pm]  romdos says start with out him [7:23pm] k [7:23pm] vargantc, okey [7:24pm] are we ready to have a meetin? [7:24pm] [7:24pm] [7:24pm] meetin' :p [7:25pm] [7:25pm] who's taking notes? Who's the facilitator? [7:25pm] [7:25pm] i feel like i might have a lot to say, so probably wouldn't make a good facilitator. [7:25pm] my irc client logs everything. [7:26pm] [7:26pm]  I'll keep track of the ajenda/facilitat [7:26pm] [7:26pm] with irc meetings, i guess there's more of a "logging" and a "summarizing" role for the note taker. [7:26pm] [7:26pm] which can be done by separate people. [7:27pm] [7:27pm] Joins: romdos (n=romsos@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) Clones: meho_pdx & RiFraS & vagrantc [7 users] [7:27pm] meho_pdx : wanna update the chan topic when we move agenda items? [7:27pm] [7:27pm]  does any one want to add any thing to the agenda, does the order look good [7:27pm] [7:27pm] where's the agenda? [7:27pm] [7:27pm] * vagrantc says rhetorically [7:27pm] [7:27pm] http://wiki.freegeek.org/index.php/Talk:Distro/irc20050823 [7:27pm] [7:27pm]  Long-term prognosis, popularity-contest, user-oriented-design, trimming a multi-profile Install CD, freekbox3 packaging [7:27pm] [7:27pm] sorry I'm late. 30+ systems out last week, scrambling to keep up with hardware needs at pdx [7:28pm] [7:28pm] (two sub-topics on freekbox3 packaging) [7:28pm] (%) tymp changes topic to 'so far the agenda: Long-term prognosis, popularity-contest, user-oriented-design, trimming a multi-profile Install CD, freekbox3 packaging' [7:28pm] i would like to try to focus more on big-picture stuff [7:29pm] and see if we can make sure we can collaborate (svn in cmh?) [7:29pm] so the details can flow along later [7:29pm] [7:29pm] tymp: does big-picture stuff fit in with long-term prognosis, or is it something different? [7:29pm] hi ho, romdos [7:29pm] [7:29pm] tymp: hi [7:30pm] [7:30pm]  so the first topic "Long-term prognosis" [7:30pm] vagrantc, no, the stuff that's there - Long-term prognosis, user-oriented-design [7:30pm] [7:30pm] who added the item? What do they consider "long term" ? [7:30pm] can we imagine 1 or 5 years from now, what freekbox should be? [7:30pm] that was my term. [7:31pm] i mean, item [7:31pm] [7:31pm] i would like to focus more on the next 1-2 years. [7:31pm] but, at least a year [7:32pm] [7:32pm] * vagrantc agrees [7:32pm] does everyone see value in that? [7:32pm] i think it is tricky, but super-important [7:32pm] [7:32pm] yes [7:32pm] [7:32pm] <gate_> yup [7:33pm] [7:33pm] on some level, the user-oriented-design is a factor that would influence it a lot. [7:33pm] a couple qualities i can think of, that i'd like it to have... [7:33pm] [7:33pm] Joins: skippy_laptop (n=skippy@two.skippy.net) Clone: skippy [8 users] [7:33pm] well, ok, i think that it should be user-oriented, from two perspectives - for the end-user / adopter. [7:34pm] [7:34pm] <meho_pdx> the freekbox 2 lasted about 2 years [7:34pm] and for the fg-worker/volunteer, who needs to maintain, install, configure, etc [7:34pm] [7:34pm] <skippy_laptop> was there a significant review from FB2 to FB3, or was it an organic growth / evolution ? [7:34pm] fg-workers being spread all across the globe, as of course they will be [7:35pm] [7:35pm] tymp: that's missing the point of the type of user-oriented design ... there is no person named adopter, and nobody named fg-worker/volunteer. [7:35pm] i know, i know, but that's ... the later topic.. :) [7:35pm] [7:35pm] there are a lot of different end users [7:35pm] [7:35pm] skippy_laptop: i don't think there was a lot of review. a lot of annectdotal ideas kind of influenced it. [7:35pm] ugh, has everyone read the zini paper? [7:36pm] [7:36pm] <skippy_laptop> i have not read it yet. [7:36pm] [7:36pm] <meho_pdx> there was alot of involment at the first meeting than every one ran [7:37pm] [7:37pm] i read it a while ago [7:37pm] [7:37pm] <gate_> so whats the zini paper [7:37pm] zini paper is interesting, and may help us talk about user-oriented design [7:37pm] shall we talk about user-oriented design now, and longterm prognosis later? [7:37pm] we are off topic [7:37pm] [7:37pm] we never settled on a topic. [7:38pm] meho_pdx? [7:38pm] crack the whip! [7:38pm] [7:38pm] <skippy_laptop> prognosis sounds like a health report to me, and not a plan / objective. [7:38pm] ok. you're right [7:38pm] i think both are in order. [7:38pm] [7:38pm] <meho_pdx> I thought we started "Long-term prognosis" [7:39pm] yeah [7:39pm] [7:39pm] <skippy_laptop> does FG/PDX have any identified goals for the FB ? [7:39pm] [7:39pm] skippy_laptop: i don't believe so. [7:39pm] how healthy is the project, as it stands today? [7:39pm] [7:39pm] skippy_laptop: freekbox3 had basic goals- provide a web-browser, word processor and email client. [7:40pm] [7:40pm] fg-pdx is in a crazy no-time-for computers mode that I hope will go away someday [7:40pm] [7:40pm] gate_: the user-oriented-design paper is linked to from the agenda in the wiki. [7:40pm] [7:40pm] skippy_laptop: correction. freekbox2 [7:40pm] [7:40pm] <gate_> thanks, [7:41pm] [7:41pm] now people want more out of fb3 (watch dvds, play mp3s, burn cds) [7:41pm] [7:41pm] <skippy_laptop> if we're to collaborate on a shared system image, ought we decide upon at least a few requirements? [7:41pm] [7:41pm] yes. [7:41pm] [7:41pm] <skippy_laptop> I, for one, do not want to spend energy chasing something that aims to be all things for all people. [7:41pm] truly! [7:42pm] [7:42pm] * vagrantc suggests user-oriented-design [7:42pm] [7:42pm] <meho_pdx> any objections [7:42pm] [7:42pm] <skippy_laptop> no [7:42pm] [7:42pm] <gate_> so what are the pdx users saying about the system right now [7:42pm] i'm thinking to propose that we set some deadlines, at least to agree on what the goals will be. [7:43pm] [7:43pm] when comparing the package lists, there was a considerably different character to the package selections. [7:43pm] [7:43pm] there biggest problem is dvd playback, but they seem to really like it [7:43pm] i haven't been aware of real research being done on user experience w/ freekbox... [7:43pm] [7:43pm] <skippy_laptop> vagrantc: can you qualify "different character" ? [7:43pm] [7:43pm] I really don't hear complaints, but I am mostly around builders [7:44pm] but, people don't like to complain [7:44pm] [7:44pm] <gate_> dvd playback is not really an option if you ask me. I own maybe two dvds I can play on linux [7:44pm] [7:44pm] we really need tech support to find out the nitty-gritty adopter problems [7:44pm] [7:44pm] <gate_> what, people don't like to complain [7:44pm] feedback is not cheap [7:44pm] [7:44pm] gate_: I've never had a dvd that I can not play on linux [7:44pm] [7:44pm] <gate_> what problems is tech support facing [7:44pm] .. well, people don't like to *thoughtfully* complain [7:44pm] [7:44pm] <skippy_laptop> we're straying from the subject. [7:45pm] [7:45pm] skippy_laptop: well ... things like dasher and gok ... seem like they're targeting a more technical, well-to-do user than the freekbox3 [7:45pm] [7:45pm] <skippy_laptop> sorry, what's dasher? [7:45pm] [7:45pm] <gate_> romdos: I'm talking without using illegal software [7:45pm] skippy_laptop, i don't think so. this, to me, is the main sickness of it, it is operating in the dark [7:46pm] [7:46pm] remember that in fg-pdx the many of the adopters have never had a computer before [7:46pm] [7:46pm] they are learning how to use a keyboard and a mous [7:46pm] [7:46pm] skippy_laptop: dasher seemed to be some sort of hands-free keyboard or something ... [7:46pm] hmm, prognosis : not encouraging :) [7:47pm] [7:47pm] <skippy_laptop> so I guess we can't have a prognosis until we evaluate the user-oriented-design issue? [7:47pm] [7:47pm] skippy_laptop: that's what i think. [7:47pm] well, no, as it stands, we haven't evaluated that, and if we do it may change things, but as for now, it's not so good, i think. [7:48pm] [7:48pm] <skippy_laptop> I'm okay if we jump to that, and then come back to prognosis as a follow-up for action items. [7:48pm] can we revisit prognosis ... yeh [7:48pm] [7:48pm] lets change topics [7:48pm] [7:48pm] skippy_laptop: the description mentions using dasher with palmtops and werables, one-handed or hands-free .... very technical. [7:48pm] (ERROR) Unknown command: TOPID [7:48pm] (%) tymp changes topic to 'user oriented design' [7:48pm] [7:48pm] * vagrantc thanks tymp [7:48pm] [7:48pm] <skippy_laptop> vagrantc: in which FB incarnation is dasher installed? [7:49pm] gnome [7:49pm] [7:49pm] <skippy_laptop> okay. [7:49pm] [7:49pm] skippy_laptop: the gnome one [7:49pm] [7:49pm] <skippy_laptop> thanks. [7:49pm] (i think it is a default gnome pckg) [7:49pm] [7:49pm] <skippy_laptop> quite probably. [7:49pm] [7:49pm] <skippy_laptop> vagrantc: I assume you're going to lead the U-O-D discussion? [7:49pm] the zini paper.. [7:50pm] [7:50pm] so... i learned about user-oriented-design stuff working with debian-np at the debian conference in brazil last year. [7:50pm] [7:50pm] i was kind of the freegeek delegation to discuss the freekbox with debian-np ... [7:50pm] (meho_pdx): shall we stack? [7:50pm] * tymp raises his hand, patient-like [7:51pm] [7:51pm] it's probably important to note that i have not actually tried user-oriented-design stuff for real, but it seems like a superb idea. [7:51pm] [7:51pm] the basic premise is to create specific personae, or identies that you're developing for... [7:51pm] [7:51pm] they should be sterotypes, or the prototypical user of a certain category... [7:52pm] [7:52pm] personae 1: first time computer user [7:52pm] [7:52pm] you give these personae a name and describe their background ... [7:52pm] [7:52pm] romdos: slow down :P [7:52pm] [7:52pm] <meho_pdx> tymp: your in q [7:52pm] [7:52pm] romdos: that's a terrible persona. [7:52pm] yay! [7:52pm] [7:52pm] romdos: it needs a name :P [7:53pm] vagrantc : say when you're done w/ the floor [7:53pm] ? [7:53pm] [7:53pm] if you reference them by their stereotypes, they become less real. [7:53pm] [7:53pm] i'll say one more thing... [7:53pm] [7:53pm] well... three more things (including this) [7:54pm] [7:54pm] http://wiki.freegeek.org/index.php/User_personae [7:54pm] [7:54pm] and .... read it before trying to do it, or you'll do it very badly. [7:54pm] [7:54pm] <meho_pdx> vagrantc: thanks [7:54pm] [7:54pm] done. [7:54pm] [7:54pm] <meho_pdx> tymp: go [7:54pm] okey [7:55pm] so, zini references several sources in his paper.. [7:55pm] (which will also be worth checking out, i think) [7:56pm] i'm familiar with the topic, and some of it is, i think, obvious or well known - jacob nielsen's work for example [7:56pm] what was novel to me was the idea of the persona [7:56pm] .. i got the impression (though, hunting for the quote just now i didn't see it) that he is advocating keeping to a *single* persona [7:56pm] [7:56pm] <meho_pdx> can people type there thoughts into a text editor so you can cut and past, thanks [7:56pm] an abstract persona [7:57pm] it should not be a real person, but it should be one persona, well defined [7:57pm] and this would be a tool for designing. he mentions, which is intersting, the idea that creating the persona may be *most* of the work of design. [7:58pm] and, once you have it, if you're really strict about not fudging it (which is important) then most decisions are straightforward [7:58pm] (almost done) [7:59pm] this "design for *one* user", is, i think, sorta counter-intuitive, but i'm really interested in it's potential [7:59pm] - though, i think there is really a definite bifurcation ... [7:59pm] in our case. we want a) a desktop and system that suits a prototypical freegeek user, but also [8:00pm] b) a distro that can be used by admins and staff and etc at startup freegeeks [8:00pm] which, is where i have some confusion... aren't these two personae? [8:00pm] okay, done [8:00pm] [8:00pm] <skippy_laptop> by dint of the fact that they're admins, they ought not be a major consideration for the design -- they can figure it out. =) [8:01pm] [8:01pm] i disagree. system administrator is often a barrier to implementing a good setup [8:01pm] well... i'm the only admin here [8:01pm] and it's an uphill battle [8:01pm] vagrantc : barrier, how? [8:01pm] [8:01pm] debian-edu has proven that you can make a good design that minimizes system admin knowledge [8:02pm] i don't think we can count on finding debian developers in every town that should have a freegeek [8:02pm] [8:02pm] tymp: if you have to wade through a dozen howtos to figure out how to set up diskless workstations, you'll likely be tempted to just set up stand-alone machines with a greater maintenance overhead. [8:02pm] [8:02pm] <skippy_laptop> vagrantc: yes, exactly. My point is that a person who IS an admin already likely has more technical mastery, and is therefor adaptable to any system they use. [8:02pm] [8:02pm] skippy_laptop: got it. [8:03pm] skippy_laptop : so that is why it seems like there are two users [8:03pm] to design for [8:03pm] [8:03pm] at least two. [8:03pm] [8:03pm] enrico's first comment was that we have way too many personae defined (11 for adoption, i think) [8:03pm] hopefully we can keep it to only two [8:03pm] [8:03pm] <skippy_laptop> tymp: yes, there may be two users, but one of them can likely work through the other's system (admin -> user); whereas the user may not be able to do the other. [8:04pm] vagrantc : i agree!! [8:04pm] [8:04pm] but if you try and meet the needs of multiple personae, it becomes a much more difficult task. [8:04pm] skippy_laptop : yes [8:04pm] so i offer : can we try to keep it to two? [8:04pm] [8:04pm] <skippy_laptop> so, from a design standpoint, it makes sense to me to focus on the user, with the understanding that the admin can wing it. [8:05pm] skippy_laptop : i'm thinking about propagation a lot... [8:05pm] [8:05pm] "who is the user?" [8:05pm] and so far, this seems to be a hurdle - finding admins [8:05pm] but, the admin can wing it to a certain extent, that must be assumed, i agree [8:05pm] [8:05pm] i guess we can't really have a good conversation about this unless folks involved want to do it, and have read some of the backgroun material. [8:06pm] yes. we could commit for next week [8:06pm] [8:06pm] we are doing exactly what is suggested to avoid- over-abstracting the personae into "user" and "admin" [8:06pm] [8:06pm] <skippy_laptop> I'm not opposed to doing it; though we'll likely end up in a lot of circular arguments. [8:06pm] skippy_laptop : ? doing what? [8:06pm] :) [8:06pm] [8:06pm] <skippy_laptop> doing it == "want to do it" == user-oriented-design [8:07pm] i think it will be hard, and imperfect, but is a worthwhile attempt [8:07pm] [8:07pm] yes. [8:07pm] [8:07pm] <skippy_laptop> vagrantc: so the list of Personae needs to be whittled down? [8:08pm] vagrantc : over-abstracting, you mean there should be one user? or what do you suggest? [8:08pm] [8:08pm] currently, we're creating these vague amorphous entities to justify our ideas, rather than creating relatively specific individuals that we are trying to help. [8:08pm] [8:08pm] skippy_laptop: yes. [8:08pm] i don't think we can realistically make a distro that can be fully administered by someone who has never used a computer!! [8:08pm] [8:08pm] <skippy_laptop> is the recommended process to look for common issues between the list of Personae, or is there a different approach to take? [8:09pm] [8:09pm] tymp: we should be talking about Jack and Bud and Sam, not "user" [8:09pm] [8:09pm] skippy_laptop: that's a good thing to do ... exactly what enrico suggested doing. [8:09pm] vagrantc : i wan't clear how zini proposed to arrive at the user. i'd rather start from scratch - with those personae as background information. [8:09pm] [8:09pm] tymp: but there is middle ground here ... we could make a distro that makes administration easier. [8:10pm] vagrantc : yes, i think that is really important. but we would need a user with internal contradictions.. [8:10pm] [8:10pm] <skippy_laptop> tymp: pick any human being you know! [8:11pm] [8:11pm] tymp: we don't need a user, we need a persona :P [8:11pm] [8:11pm] has anyone here done any sort of role-playing ... games, theatre, etc ... ? [8:11pm] yeah, yeah, updating my memory-bank.. ;) [8:11pm] [8:11pm] <skippy_laptop> vagrantc: yes, and yes. [8:12pm] [8:12pm] yes, every other saturday [8:12pm] skippy_laptop : i guess i'm questioning, what's the best way to arrive at a user who is not a real person.. [8:12pm] [8:12pm] basically, i fell we'll probably need 2-3 personae, and probably make software configurations that meet each of their needs (such as simple-cdd profiles) [8:13pm] [8:13pm] <skippy_laptop> tymp: look at the list of defined Personae already. What common themes exist between them? In what way can you distill their similarities into a single Persona? [8:13pm] quote: give it a name of a person that doesn't exist, write down its profile on a piece of paper and stick it to the wall. Write it in the beginning of your README file. Put as many details as you can, even pointless, but anything that can make you remember who's your target. [8:13pm] [8:13pm] essentially... what's needed to is take inspiration from people who are real... [8:13pm] vagrantc : or tasksel pkg-sets? [8:13pm] [8:13pm] and find commonalities ... and turn it into a fictional person. [8:13pm] [8:13pm] tymp: sure. [8:14pm] okay, can we each try to have a draft for next tues? [8:14pm] [8:14pm] <skippy_laptop> so this begs the question: is there any hands-on distro work we can do while we're working through this process? [8:15pm] [8:15pm] we also have at least three different freegeeks... maybe not all the personae apply to all freegeeks [8:15pm] [8:15pm] <skippy_laptop> We don't know yet who our target audience will _be_. We know vaguely who we want, but we're protean enough to not have any actual customers. [8:15pm] [8:15pm] skippy_laptop: i think so. building technologies to distribute the distro, with the knowledge that we may need some modularity to support the various personae [8:16pm] [8:16pm] i.e. different package selections, different configurations, etc. [8:16pm] [8:16pm] <meho_pdx> does any one have any thing to add to this topic? [8:16pm] [8:16pm] <meho_pdx> befor we move on [8:16pm] skippy_laptop : we could, develop testing strategies - feedback gathering, and also work on the development strategy itself [8:17pm] [8:17pm] <skippy_laptop> fair enough. I just wanted to check. Thanks. [8:17pm] [8:17pm] <skippy_laptop> meho_pdx: I've nothing else. [8:17pm] [8:17pm] skippy_laptop: it was a good question :) [8:17pm] yeah. [8:17pm] skippy_laptop : yeah [8:17pm] i mean vagrantc : yeah [8:17pm] meho_pdx : i'm good [8:18pm] oh, except : commitments? [8:18pm] [8:18pm] * vagrantc wonders what is next [8:18pm] * tymp sends meho a psychic message to reprint the agenda [8:18pm] [8:18pm] i think popularity contest will be short ... [8:19pm] [8:19pm] <skippy_laptop> the data is not terribly useful without a lot of effort. [8:19pm] [8:19pm] <meho_pdx> (sorry my vim died) [8:19pm] [8:19pm] <skippy_laptop> The popular packages are all those installed with the base system! [8:19pm] heh [8:19pm] there is a security issue w/ popcon [8:19pm] [8:19pm] <skippy_laptop> though it looked like KDE was more popular than GNOME. [8:20pm] the user, i mean johnny, must agree to submit the info! [8:20pm] (%) romdos changes topic to 'popularity contest' [8:20pm] [8:20pm] skippy_laptop: except, it provides a mechanism to see which packages were used within the last week. [8:20pm] [8:20pm] ok... [8:20pm] skippy_laptop : it's the software, popularity-contest, right? [8:20pm] [8:20pm] so... i pointed to popcon.debian.org ... [8:21pm] [8:21pm] but really, i meant setting up our own popcon server. [8:21pm] yes [8:21pm] [8:21pm] <skippy_laptop> aahhhh [8:21pm] [8:21pm] <meho_pdx> vagrantc: I think thats a great idea [8:21pm] [8:21pm] where we would collect popularity-contest data from our users. [8:21pm] (easily missed) [8:21pm] [8:21pm] sorry for the lack of clarity [8:21pm] [8:21pm] <skippy_laptop> may I ask: how many of your users install software beyond your stock build? [8:22pm] that would be nice to know!! [8:22pm] [8:22pm] technically, this would be easiest with a backported popularity contest [8:22pm] [8:22pm] skippy_laptop: we have no idea! [8:22pm] [8:22pm] skippy_laptop: this could tell us [8:22pm] [8:22pm] <skippy_laptop> I was afaid that was the answer. =) [8:22pm] vagrantc : i think this is a useful project to pursue - fg-popcon [8:22pm] [8:22pm] this could be one way of getting some information... [8:23pm] [8:23pm] <skippy_laptop> So popcon in this context is more for future iterations of FB, and not exactly this next one? [8:23pm] [8:23pm] it's not perfect, but it's better than no data. [8:23pm] i have a lot of ideas, and think it will not be too time consuming to have a simple app that'll work [8:23pm] [8:23pm] skippy_laptop: well... we could make freekbox3.1, freekbox3.2 ... relatively minor changes. [8:23pm] vagrant and i had mentioned, briefly, having a support-feedback-research system integrated into freekbox [8:24pm] with popcon, a really easy bug-reporting interface, etc [8:24pm] [8:24pm] <skippy_laptop> vagrantc: yes, but the body of data you need to make sense of popularity info is not likely to come from a single point release (or two). You'll need a large-ish period of time to really see who's doing what, I think. [8:24pm] [8:24pm] the technical difficulties are: we need a backported version to to set up with HTTP POST, as opposed to getting a working mail configuration out of the box for each and every user (which is nearly impossible) [8:24pm] vagrantc : but that is *really* simple [8:25pm] we also need a gui way to turn it on and off [8:25pm] which is pretty simple too [8:25pm] [8:25pm] skippy_laptop: right. but it might point out something within the first month or two... like... we have this *huge* package that not a single person has used. [8:25pm] [8:25pm] <skippy_laptop> *couhg*wesnoth*cough* [8:26pm] [8:26pm] * meho_pdx falls on the floor [8:26pm] skippy_laptop : (ha), what vagrant said, and right now, there in zero data, so ... [8:26pm] [8:26pm] anyone want to look into it? i can give some additional pointers. [8:26pm] [8:26pm] <skippy_laptop> sure. I think it's a great idea. Just getting a feel for the scope. [8:26pm] [8:26pm] <skippy_laptop> I can investigate. [8:26pm] in general, we want to move from, what vagrant has called meritocracy (decisions being made by those who do the work), toward ... SCIENCE!! [8:27pm] vagrantc : look into what? [8:27pm] [8:27pm] <skippy_laptop> look into running a backported popcon server. [8:27pm] [8:27pm] (there is significant difference between meritoracy in the free software community and the dictionary definitions) [8:27pm] [8:27pm] yeah. [8:27pm] [8:27pm] <skippy_laptop> I volunteer for this. [8:27pm] ah, the server [8:28pm] [8:28pm] <meho_pdx> this topic looks wraped up [8:28pm] [8:28pm] <meho_pdx> unless thers more...? [8:28pm] [8:28pm] skippy_laptop: i believe the package in unstable works without a hitch on sarge. [8:28pm] one more time, though : you can't enable a thing like that without telling people! [8:28pm] [8:28pm] * vagrantc nods [8:28pm] that is called spying [8:28pm] [8:28pm] there should be an option to disable it in the class. [8:29pm] [8:29pm] (or an option to enable it) [8:29pm] ugh, that is local. we don't have a class [8:29pm] the latter, plus some begging [8:29pm] [8:29pm] tymp: well, there is a point at which you give them the computer, and at this point, you should tell them about it. [8:29pm] [8:29pm] * vagrantc is done. [8:30pm] [8:30pm] <meho_pdx> vagrantc: thanks [8:30pm] [8:30pm] <meho_pdx> 2 topics: [8:30pm] skippy_laptop : do you want to check out the server aspect.. too? [8:30pm] [8:30pm] <skippy_laptop> tymp: sure. [8:30pm] [8:30pm] <meho_pdx> 1:trimming a multi-profile Install CD, [8:30pm] vagrantc : yeah. k. [8:30pm] (done) [8:30pm] [8:30pm] <meho_pdx> 2: freekbox3 packaging: building new freekbox3 packages, new freekbox3 package archive: Debian_Package_Repositories [8:30pm] [8:30pm] <meho_pdx> any prefferences [8:30pm] um, can we talk about the svn ? [8:30pm] [8:30pm] yes. [8:31pm] [8:31pm] svn seems more important. [8:31pm] i think that comes first [8:31pm] [8:31pm] <meho_pdx> objections? [8:31pm] did you guys feel like you got it hashed out? [8:31pm] [8:31pm] * vagrantc doesn't see any ... [8:31pm] [8:31pm] <meho_pdx> ok svn it is [8:31pm] [8:31pm] <skippy_laptop> I'm happy to manage SVN on my system; but I've decided that I'm not happy about shell accounts. [8:32pm] [8:32pm] <skippy_laptop> So, if shell (ssh) is a show-stopper, someone else will need to provide the server. [8:32pm] (%) romdos changes topic to 'talk about the svn' [8:32pm] i did not follow all of the technical details of the email conversation, but.. [8:32pm] well, i would like to know if vagrantc and skippy_laptop could each summarize the present concerns? [8:33pm] [8:33pm] <skippy_laptop> certainly. [8:33pm] (for me, i wouldn't want a shell account anyway) [8:33pm] [8:33pm] * vagrantc wants an svn shell, not a shell account [8:33pm] [8:33pm] <skippy_laptop> My current SVN setup uses the SVN Apache DAV module, so all svn commits use the Apache process. [8:33pm] [8:33pm] <skippy_laptop> I proposed used client SSL certificates for commit authentication. [8:34pm] [8:34pm] the problem with SSL certificates, is there's no way to mimic the password caching of ssh-agent. [8:34pm] [8:34pm] a svn-only shell is easy enough for svn+ssh served svn. the hard part is svn and cvs accounts. [8:34pm] [8:34pm] <skippy_laptop> My understanding is that Vagrant is trepidatious of this recommendation because he does not want to use a password-less SSL cert; and a passworded-SSL cert causes a lot of password prompting. [8:34pm] [8:34pm] yup. [8:35pm] [8:35pm] there's also ldap-authenticated DAV [8:35pm] [8:35pm] <skippy_laptop> romdos: I've been reviewing the svn ssh docs. It's easy-ish to set up, but I'm not confident that the account could not be leveraged to gain actual shell in other ways. [8:35pm] [8:35pm] (i think) [8:36pm] [8:36pm] skippy_laptop: i could use a certificate, and ecnrypt it with gpg. [8:36pm] [8:36pm] that's good enough for me. [8:36pm] [8:36pm] then i can decypt it for however long i use it. [8:36pm] [8:36pm] skippy_laptop: it's not impossible, i'm sure, but limiting a user's shell is a significant barrier to cracking a system. [8:37pm] [8:37pm] <skippy_laptop> Groovy. I admit to being completely ignorant of the conditions in which you work. For me, a password-less certificate used solely for SVN access isn't a big deal. [8:37pm] anyhow, there is no perfect security [8:37pm] [8:37pm] apache has provided more hackers shell accounts than freegeek's cvsshell script :) [8:38pm] [8:38pm] <skippy_laptop> Someone will need to make available to me the CVS history. [8:38pm] [8:38pm] vagrantc: more a factor of how wide-spread apache is than the security of either system, but true. [8:38pm] [8:38pm] the hardest part is coordinating when to stop using cvs and start using svn ... [8:39pm] [8:39pm] i have been very busy this last week in cvs. [8:39pm] [8:39pm] we should do a trial conversion of the cvs to svn, then pick a time. [8:39pm] [8:39pm] romdos: sounds good to me. [8:39pm] i month to play/test? [8:40pm] *1 month [8:40pm] [8:40pm] <skippy_laptop> how big do you expect the CVS history to be? [8:40pm] [8:40pm] skippy_laptop: not real big - we didn't grab the history from freekbox2 [8:41pm] [8:41pm] :/var/cvsroot/freekbox3$ du -sh [8:41pm] [8:41pm] 6.5M . [8:41pm] [8:41pm] just tarball that up, and hand it to skippy ? [8:41pm] [8:41pm] <skippy_laptop> put it somewhere where I can wget it, preferably. [8:41pm] [8:41pm] skippy_laptop: we haven't done many, if any branches or tags, either. [8:42pm] is good then? [8:42pm] [8:42pm] <skippy_laptop> someone send me an email with a URL, and I'll then coordinate one by one with folks who need/want commit access. [8:42pm] i would like to see some use guidelines ... [8:43pm] [8:43pm] usage for svn? [8:43pm] [8:43pm] tymp: technical, or day-to-day ? [8:43pm] for versioning in general... [8:43pm] day-to-day [8:43pm] 'how not to step on toes' [8:43pm] [8:43pm] <skippy_laptop> svn up; svn diff [8:43pm] [8:43pm] i can try and write something up in the wiki. [8:44pm] [8:44pm] there's the 'CVS for Coders' page you can start with [8:44pm] [8:44pm] <skippy_laptop> tymp: have you read the red-bean book ? [8:44pm] i think that would help. [8:44pm] skippy_laptop : partway [8:44pm] [8:44pm] next topic? [8:44pm] the technical, i can read, it's not that [8:44pm] [8:44pm] i canwrite up a more generic "how to play nice with version control" wiki page. [8:44pm] [8:44pm] <skippy_laptop> are we now to the 1) and 2) FB issues ? [8:45pm] [8:45pm] <meho_pdx> topic: trimming a multi-profile Install CD [8:45pm] (my bad for not being more dilligent in seeking, but .. i think it would ease things for newcomers) [8:45pm] okdy [8:45pm] *okay [8:45pm] [8:45pm] <meho_pdx> or freekbox3 packaging [8:45pm] (%) vagrantc changes topic to 'trimming a multi-profile Install CD' [8:45pm] [8:45pm] <skippy_laptop> trimming a multi-profile install CD fits nicely with "coordinating one system to allow multiple desktop environments" [8:45pm] [8:45pm] oops. [8:46pm] [8:46pm] shall i report on this week's experiences? [8:46pm] [8:46pm] <meho_pdx> skippy_laptop: sounds good [8:46pm] sure [8:46pm] [8:46pm] <meho_pdx> vagrantc: yues [8:46pm] [8:46pm] <meho_pdx> *yes [8:46pm] [8:46pm] <skippy_laptop> My vision is for all FGs to offer a unified set of applications, based on the U-O-D work. [8:46pm] [8:46pm] <skippy_laptop> sure, vagrantc [8:46pm] skippy_laptop : i concur [8:47pm] [8:47pm] the freekbox3 profile was already working pretty good (though i'd like to get newer released packages for freekbox3)... [8:47pm] [8:47pm] i added several additional profiles, and came up with a 697MB CD image. [8:47pm] [8:47pm] the additional profiles do not have any custom configuration, just package selections. [8:48pm] [8:48pm] they are: [8:48pm] [8:48pm] freekbox3 [8:48pm] [8:48pm] freekbox3-gnome [8:48pm] [8:48pm] freekbox3-laptop [8:48pm] [8:48pm] freekbox3-fgoly [8:48pm] [8:48pm] fg-baseserver [8:48pm] [8:48pm] lessdisks [8:48pm] [8:48pm] "" [8:49pm] [8:49pm] today, i figured out how to make custom tasksel tasks, and am currently testing how that works in qemu. [8:49pm] [8:49pm] basically... that's a lot of stuff for 700MB [8:49pm] [8:49pm] which is pretty cool. [8:49pm] [8:49pm] but i think there is a lot of cruft in there, too. [8:50pm] [8:50pm] any questions? [8:50pm] [8:50pm] <skippy_laptop> it would be ideal if we had a freekbox-base, which identified our core apps; then freekbox-kde or freekbox-gnome could be applied. [8:50pm] [8:50pm] <skippy_laptop> or freekbox-icewm, if someone wanted to go that way. [8:50pm] vagrantc : i think it is an interesting idea, but it would be ideal if we can end up with one install [8:50pm] [8:50pm] skippy_laptop: i made modifications to the freekbox3 packages to support that. [8:51pm] [8:51pm] <skippy_laptop> so, as a result of the U-O-D effort, we can identify what core apps are _necessary_, and we can work to standardize those despite desktop environment. Then teams can focus on tweaking desktop environments as needed (with an eye toward some standardization as much as possible) [8:51pm] [8:51pm] tymp: i don't understand ... ? [8:52pm] [8:52pm] skippy_laptop: excellent proposal! [8:52pm] [8:52pm] gate_: were you the one who made the freebox package list? [8:53pm] [8:53pm] <skippy_laptop> KDE and GNOME don't have 1-to-1 analogues for all things (like changing background image, for example), so some things we simply won't be able to standardize. [8:53pm] vagrantc : one profile, and ... mainly what skippy is saying - the gnome/kde/ice 'profiles' could be selected in kdm/gdm [8:53pm] [8:53pm] <skippy_laptop> yes, gate_ made the package list. [8:53pm] [8:53pm] tymp: ah. [8:54pm] [8:54pm] <skippy_laptop> the GNOME package list is still bloated. I don't know where gate_ left off, but we had talked about thinning it out a bit yet. [8:54pm] but standardization will take time, and may not be feasible in some respects [8:54pm] [8:54pm] there are a few packages i would like to consider dropping from freekbox3-gnome ... [8:54pm] [8:54pm] tymp: one of the needs will be for a small install, however ... so that needs a separate profile ... [8:55pm] hmm, right. [8:56pm] = laptop? [8:56pm] [8:56pm] skippy_laptop: tymp and i did some comparisons of packages between freekbox3 and freekbox3-gnome, as well as listing the size of each package ... [8:56pm] not sure if this is still up to date, and some small things missed, but: http://fgoly.org/fileshare/rob/fbsz.diff [8:56pm] [8:56pm] tymp: i believe there have been very few changes since then. [8:57pm] [8:57pm] http://wiki.freegeek.org/index.php/Talk:Installer_CD [8:58pm] [8:58pm] the biggest one that stuck out to me was dasher ... not knowing GNOME very well, i didn't know if it qas required by much ... but it seems very technically-oriented. [8:59pm] [8:59pm] i gues we're coming to a close ? [8:59pm] (vagrantc : did you just du /pool and then .. what did you diff) [8:59pm] [8:59pm] oh, i also posted to the list about vlc or xine ... those would add some space, but seem well-worth it. [9:00pm] (for those files) [9:00pm] i haven't gotten vlc working yet.. does it pull in gui interfaces? [9:00pm] xine, is the most versatile i've found, but the interface i've used it very annoying [9:01pm] [9:01pm] tymp: basically, yeah, i just did a "du -sc pool/*", and i compared the freekbox.packages and freekbox3-gnome.packages for the diff. [9:01pm] okay [9:01pm] [9:01pm] tymp: vlc GUI was the default on my machine ... it uses wxvlc ... i switched it to ncurses, of course :) [9:02pm] i can give you a script next week for that (almost done w/) if the paths are static [9:02pm] [9:02pm] tymp: which paths ? [9:02pm] yes, of course :) [9:02pm] pool and *.packages [9:03pm] i'm just blabbering now [9:03pm] need food [9:03pm] [9:03pm] yes, pool and packages will be pretty static. [9:03pm] [9:03pm] any more discussion on this topic? [9:03pm] [9:03pm] is everyone distracted by something else? [9:03pm] was vlc gui in the kde menu, or do you know? [9:03pm] everyone is reading the package lists :) [9:03pm] [9:03pm] tymp: you're asking the wrong person about GUI menus. [9:04pm] [9:04pm] <skippy_laptop> i'm not distracted. I've nothing to add. I use MPlayer exclusively. [9:04pm] should have guessed that :) [9:04pm] [9:04pm] skippy_laptop: mplayer is not in debian. [9:04pm] [9:04pm] <skippy_laptop> Yes, I know. [9:04pm] [9:04pm] <skippy_laptop> like I said, I have nothing to add. [9:04pm] [9:04pm] it would be orders of magniture easier for us to stick with what's in debian. [9:04pm] michael installs it for folk [9:05pm] seems like closin time. commitments review? [9:05pm] [9:05pm] more than a discussion of vlc/xine, i'm curious if we're done with the "trimming a multi-profile install cd" topic [9:05pm] [9:05pm] <skippy_laptop> I will investigate a custom popcon server / client. [9:05pm] [9:05pm] <skippy_laptop> oh. I'm jumping ahead. [9:05pm] [9:05pm] * vagrantc kicks meho_pdx [9:05pm] lol [9:05pm] [9:05pm] <meho_pdx> ouch [9:06pm] [9:06pm] <skippy_laptop> trimming should come as a result of the U-O-D process, I think. [9:06pm] meho_pdx : you need bossiness training [9:06pm] [9:06pm] <meho_pdx> tymp: I know [9:06pm] [9:06pm] skippy_laptop: it would save me a lot of time if we can drop some obvious things right away. [9:06pm] but in the meanwhile, can we have a way to propose removals? [9:06pm] [9:06pm] <skippy_laptop> vagrantc: I don't have a FreeBox handy, else I'd `apt-get remove dasher` and tell you what that breaks. [9:07pm] [9:07pm] it takes a long time to build CD images and test them in qemu. the larger they are, the more time i spend waiting. [9:07pm] [9:07pm] <skippy_laptop> but I'll make a note. [9:07pm] [9:07pm] <skippy_laptop> vagrantc: if you have a list, share it. We can discuss. [9:07pm] [9:07pm] <skippy_laptop> that is, share the list on the mailing list. [9:07pm] skippy_laptop : nothing appears to depend on it. if you and gate_ are not specifically attached to dasher.. [9:07pm] [9:07pm] i'll post to the list my removal suggestions? [9:07pm] sounds good [9:08pm] [9:08pm] <skippy_laptop> yes, please, vagrantc. And if possible, a rationale might help on some packages (he says, not knowing what the packages are yet...) [9:08pm] [9:08pm] the main ones that stood out were dasher and gok. [9:08pm] [9:08pm] <meho_pdx> commitment: we will all think about personas for next week [9:08pm] [9:08pm] rationale will be easier in email [9:09pm] [9:09pm] <meho_pdx> thats the only other one I found up there [9:09pm] [9:09pm] thinking about them without reading up will not do much good. [9:09pm] [9:09pm] <meho_pdx> vagrantc: good point, my bad [9:09pm] commitment : and read the zini paper and references, as much as possible [9:09pm] [9:09pm] * vagrantc hasn't read any references [9:09pm] [9:09pm] <skippy_laptop> well, at the least one could eye-ball the similar themes between the current Personae. [9:10pm] [9:10pm] yes. that would be a good thing. [9:10pm] [9:10pm] <skippy_laptop> but yes, a passing familiarity with the Zini piece will be helpful. [9:10pm] [9:10pm] and identify which of the debian-np personae we could drop. [9:10pm] hmm, the wiki personae page would be another reference.. [9:10pm] [9:10pm] yes... [9:11pm] [9:11pm] <skippy_laptop> I'm committed to the popcon research; and the SVN import. [9:11pm] [9:11pm] i'll keep building CD images :) [9:11pm] mostly, seems like [2] Alan Cooper, „The Inmates Are Running the Asylum: Why High Tech Products Drive Us Crazy and How to Restore the Sanity“, Sams Publishing, 1999 - is where he draws what interests me [9:12pm] [9:12pm] <meho_pdx> skippy_laptop: I can get you cvs tared tomorow night [9:12pm] i have made no commitments?! [9:12pm] [9:12pm] <skippy_laptop> meho_pdx: groovy. [9:12pm] that would be so sweet! [9:12pm] [9:12pm] tymp: wanna make a freekbox3-fgoly postinst script for simple-cdd ? :) [9:13pm] [9:13pm] we need to build some gpg trust :) [9:13pm] ok. http://fgoly.org/fileshare/fgoc.tar :) [9:13pm] [9:13pm] <skippy_laptop> is it the case that the bulk of the fg-oly changes are cosmetic? Why not fold 'em in with the main install? [9:13pm] i would much like to do that [9:13pm] how to proceed in that direction? [9:13pm] [9:13pm] skippy_laptop: that might require re-writing the documentation... [9:13pm] who will i piss off? [9:14pm] [9:14pm] first, i think it's best as a separate profile which we can later add on to. [9:14pm] * tymp commits to read the manual to find out [9:14pm] [9:14pm] <skippy_laptop> I had rather assumed that a lot of the documentation was up for revision as a result of all this. [9:14pm] yes, and it may still be somewhat out of date from fb2-3 ? [9:14pm] [9:14pm] once we have a good working setup, and convince all needed parties that it's a *good thing*, we can merge it in. [9:14pm] [9:14pm] <skippy_laptop> I wasn't suggesting FG/PDX start _using_ the revised images. [9:15pm] i would like to [9:15pm] who are the "needed parties"? [9:15pm] [9:15pm] <skippy_laptop> FG build teachers, most likely. And support folks. And documentation teams. [9:15pm] [9:15pm] largely education group. [9:15pm] [9:15pm] what skippy_laptop said [9:15pm] so, email build@ and classes@, and ..? [9:16pm] skippy_laptop : thanks [9:16pm] [9:16pm] tymp: first, i think we should make it easy to install, which facilitates demonstration. [9:16pm] [9:16pm] tymp: maybe you could post some screenshots that point out the differences, though... [9:17pm] it's almost there.. well, is basically, except some silly bash mistakes (updated several times today) [9:17pm] vagrantc : good idea... okay [9:17pm] [9:17pm] i think the "freekbox3" is probably the least malleable in the short term. [9:17pm] [9:17pm] <skippy_laptop> is there anything else on the agenda? It's after midnight here, so I'm going to leave soon. [9:17pm] [9:17pm] long-term we can do whatever... [9:18pm] [9:18pm] <meho_pdx> I think we hit every thing we can tonight [9:18pm] [9:18pm] we didn't discuss building new freekbox3 packages or hosting them in a better way [9:18pm] [9:18pm] probably [9:18pm] [9:18pm] i'll pester the mailing list about the new packages [9:18pm] vagrantc : that would be, yes, good to have some background on [9:18pm] [9:18pm] <skippy_laptop> I suggest a mirror.freegeek.org round-robin DNS name. [9:19pm] [9:19pm] <skippy_laptop> the above is in response to "hosting them in a better way" [9:19pm] [9:19pm] skippy_laptop: i was more talking about how the mirror is structured and installed, not how it is hosted [9:19pm] the file-tree? [9:19pm] [9:19pm] <meho_pdx> tymp: do you plan on posting the log to the wiki, [9:19pm] yes [9:19pm] [9:19pm] in the agenda, there's a link to a howto i wrote for building debian package repositories with mini-dinstall [9:19pm] where's ideath? [9:20pm] too bad [9:20pm] [9:20pm] <meho_pdx> tymp: thanks [9:20pm] [9:20pm] <meho_pdx> portland is closing for the night........... [9:20pm] vagrantc : okay. hope you don't mind re-mentioning things like that ... perhaps several times over [9:20pm] goodnight portland [9:20pm] [9:20pm] night folks. [9:21pm] [9:21pm] thanks for the discussion! [9:21pm] [9:21pm] <skippy_laptop> [9:21pm] [9:21pm] gnight all [9:21pm] [9:21pm] Quits: romdos (n=romsos@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) ("Leaving") [9:21pm] [9:21pm] <skippy_laptop> be well. [9:21pm] goodnight ohio, thans much! [9:21pm] [9:21pm] Quits: skippy_laptop (n=skippy@two.skippy.net) ("BitchX FTP Site -- ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/network/chat/irc") [9:21pm] [9:21pm] <gate_> looks liek I got lots to read since those darn roommates blew up my wireless AP tonight [9:21pm] [9:21pm] Quits: skippy (n=skippy@two.skippy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [9:21pm] [9:21pm] <meho_pdx> I plan on being a better facilitator the next time I get a shot [9:21pm] [9:21pm] <gate_> night [9:21pm] [9:21pm] Parts: gate_ (n=gate@cpe-24-210-70-207.columbus.res.rr.com) [4 users] [9:22pm] meho_pdx : you were pretty good. if it was me, i would have interrupted a lot more, but i'm just like that :)