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  • date: Aug 30, 2005
  • checkin time: 7-7:15pm PDT -0700 (10-10:15pm EDT)
  • meeting time 7:15pm PDT -0700 (10:15pm EDT)
  • meet in irc.freenode.net #freegeek-distro


unfinished items from last meeting:

  • freekbox3 packaging:
    • building new freekbox3 packages [1]
    • new freekbox3 package archive possibilities:

ongoing items:

new items:

  • frequency of irc meetings (do we want to stick with weekly meetings?)
  • media player options: vlc, xine
  • where to put irc meeting logs, agenda and notes

commitments from last meeting:

  • skippy
    • research popularity-contest server
    • svn import
  • meho_pdx
    • provide tarball of cvs for svn import
  • tymp (= baxrob)
    • read freekbox3 manual to gauge impacts of freekbox3-fgoly suggestions
  • anybody
    • look for similar themes in current personae, drop inappropriate debian-np personae

log / summary

[4:58pm] <gate_> anyone know if skippy has svn up and running
[5:31pm] <tymp> yes, it's up
[5:59pm] <gate_> guess I need to so that cert based stuff then
[6:17pm] <gate_> I know this is way off topic but anyone happen to know of any good debian xen base images
[6:49pm] skippy|away (n=nnskippy@ is now known as skippy
[6:49pm] skippy (n=nnskippy@ is now known as skippy|away
[6:54pm] skippy|away (n=nnskippy@ is now known as skippy
[6:56pm] skippy (n=nnskippy@ is now known as skippy|away
[6:56pm] skippy|away (n=nnskippy@ is now known as skippy
[6:57pm] <skippy> hi
[7:06pm] <gate_> back
[7:06pm] <skippy> hi gate_
[7:06pm] <gate_> real off topic. in apache how to u make all file under cgi-bin execuable. I normnally do it by extions
[7:06pm] <skippy> can you do that?
[7:08pm] <vagrantc> could you use xen to test freekbox3 images?
[7:08pm] <vagrantc> i mostly have been using qemu, but i heard that was an alternative...
[7:08pm] <gate_> I'm hoping to do some testings with xen
[7:09pm] <gate_> I need to build a debian base image. with lvm I can take snap shots and have everything vm ware gives me
[7:09pm] <gate_> or just about
[7:09pm] <vagrantc> gate_: can't you just boot off a CD ?
[7:09pm] <vagrantc> make your own image?
[7:10pm] <gate_> if I installed into a custom partition then yes
[7:10pm] <skippy> what applications use dbus-daemon-1 ?
[7:10pm] <vagrantc> gate_: you can't just use files as disks with xen?
[7:11pm] <gate_> ya I can do that too but I'm using lvm to do file system snap shots
[7:12pm] <vagrantc> i must get more familiar with lvm ...
[7:12pm] <gate_> its pretty nice. I allocate what I think I need and if I'm wrong I just grow the fiilesystem
[7:12pm] <vagrantc> so ... more on-topic, i may not be able to attend some of the meeting ... my partner just got back in town after two weeks of visiting family for an emergency ...
[7:13pm] <vagrantc> well, sort of on-topic.
[7:13pm] <skippy> isn't it time to start?
[7:13pm] <gate_> now it is
[7:13pm] <tymp> hi
[7:13pm] <vagrantc> that's what it says.
[7:13pm] <tymp> i have 7:13
[7:13pm] <tymp> :)
[7:13pm] <tymp> what is xen?
[7:13pm] <gate_> google it and click the first link
[7:13pm] <gate_> its a virtual machine
[7:13pm] <tymp> k
[7:14pm] <vagrantc> tymp: possibly an alternative to qemu ...
[7:14pm] <tymp> i see
[7:14pm] <vagrantc> though i don't think it made it into sarge ... it had some release critical bugs before sarge release.
[7:15pm] <vagrantc> meho: you coming, or what?
[7:15pm] <vagrantc> RiFraS: what about you?
[7:15pm] * vagrantc yells for romdos
[7:16pm] * tymp scans the agenda quickly, after just waking from a nap
[7:17pm] <vagrantc> seems like freegeek portland is asleep.
[7:18pm] <vagrantc> my computer's clock and the clock on sempai disagree by about 4 minutes.
[7:18pm] <vagrantc> 6, actually.
[7:19pm] <vagrantc> i guess it's more laid back in new mexico
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> the agenda looks pretty long ...
[7:21pm] Joins: Karinu (n=karinu@c-24-21-227-33.hsd1.or.comcast.net) [7 users]
[7:21pm] <tymp> many of them are brief, i think
[7:21pm] <vagrantc> Karinu: welcome ...
[7:21pm] <Karinu> Hello.
[7:21pm] <Karinu> vld is here as well, but having trouble locating an IRC client
[7:22pm] <vagrantc> Karinu: "vld" ?
[7:22pm] <gate_> that was my problem last week. could not find a mac one i liked and would keep working paste 30 days
[7:23pm] <skippy> Xchat not good enough for you, gate_ ? Nor solliloquy?
[7:23pm] <gate_> well I did build it but I have never like xchat
[7:24pm] <skippy> i just switched to GNOME for my desktop, so I've lost Konversation as my IRC client. I'm using Xchat now, and it seems servicable. Is there a better GNOME IRC client?
[7:24pm] <gate_> I like of liked pirch, or I think it was the name
[7:25pm] <vagrantc> should we attempt to discuss some of the agenda, even though the portland contingent is not present?
[7:25pm] <tymp> some likelihood they're already familiar with some of the first item?
[7:26pm] <vagrantc> tymp: minimally.
[7:26pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i'm hoping to change some of the current practices regarding packaging.
[7:26pm] <tymp> well, what's good to start with..
[7:26pm] <Karinu> Should I go look for Dave? He was here a while back...
[7:26pm] Joins: metavor (n=vld@c-24-21-227-33.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Clone: Karinu [8 users]
[7:27pm] <gate_> mini-dinstall
[7:27pm] <metavor> Greetings.
[7:27pm] <tymp> hello
[7:27pm] <vagrantc> Karinu: ah, you are actually at freegeek?
[7:27pm] <vagrantc> (portland)
[7:27pm] <Karinu> Dave says go ahead and start, he's busy closing the building
[7:27pm] <Karinu> Yes
[7:27pm] <metavor> I am too.
[7:27pm] <metavor> In fact, I'm sitting next to karinu.
[7:28pm] <skippy> so, packaging.
[7:28pm] <tymp> lead the way, vagrantc!
[7:28pm] <tymp> er
[7:29pm] <vagrantc> basically, we need ome of the code from freekbox3 cvs released as packages.
[7:29pm] <vagrantc> i don't have the means to test that they are actually working.
[7:29pm] <metavor> Karinu and I have an idea to add to the end if the agenda.
[7:29pm] <vagrantc> i can kind of test with qemu, but it doesn't tell me if X is working right.
[7:29pm] <tymp> you don't run x in qemu there?
[7:29pm] <tymp> too slow?
[7:30pm] <vagrantc> i run qemu remotely. i don't have a machine that's capable of building images and running qemu.
[7:30pm] <tymp> so, do you just need some people to do test adding the packages?
[7:30pm] <vagrantc> yes.
[7:30pm] <tymp> (i can barely commit to much this coming month)
[7:30pm] <gate_> I can test
[7:30pm] <vagrantc> without new packages, i'd be hesitant to release a new CD image.
[7:31pm] <skippy> vagrantc: would something like FreeNX or VNC to a private machine help you?
[7:31pm] <vagrantc> skippy: possibly, though i haven't gotten freenx to work yet.
[7:32pm] <tymp> vagrantc, can you explain why new packages are needed? i'm unclear
[7:32pm] <vagrantc> or, i don't know enough about setting freenx up to know if the server or client is broken.
[7:33pm] <vagrantc> tymp: they're not absolutely needed, but the install would be much cleaner- the old packages list packages not available in sarge, and try to install each package individually.
[7:33pm] <vagrantc> basically, it would resolve a number of feedback issues that people have reported with the old images
[7:33pm] <tymp> ok, i didn't know it was the packages doing that
[7:33pm] <gate_> vagrantc: how does your new way of installing all packages at once get around the max limit for params
[7:34pm] <tymp> i can find time to test new packages, most likely
[7:34pm] <vagrantc> gate_: i don't know that it does :)
[7:34pm] <tymp> sounds straightforward
[7:34pm] <vagrantc> gate_: i switched to using tasksel, which handles missing packages much better.
[7:34pm] <gate_> ok
[7:35pm] <vagrantc> also, since the packages are crucial to freegeek portland, i would like to get some testers from there ...
[7:36pm] <gate_> about all my testing would do is let you know that the install did not break
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> i guess we could release experimental packages and put them somewhere else ...
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> yeah, i'd like to know if it's working the way people need it to work ...
[7:37pm] <tymp> so, if they work elsewhere, they still may not work in portland?  
[7:37pm] <gate_> question about minix. Does it only setup 16bit on purpose?
[7:37pm] <vagrantc> tymp: other people may not really know what freegeek portland needs working.
[7:38pm] <tymp> right.  well, guess you can only urge them to try..  and the rest of us can do what we can
[7:38pm] <tymp> vagrantc, would you like others to be more familiar with the whole packaging process?
[7:38pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i.e. i don't want to change anything without the people most affected getting a chance to test it.
[7:38pm] <vagrantc> definitely.
[7:38pm] <tymp> but an experimental setup could help some?
[7:38pm] <vagrantc> there's README.packaging
[7:38pm] <tymp> in the cvs?
[7:38pm] * meho checks in, but he cant stay long
[7:38pm] <vagrantc> and svn, now :)
[7:38pm] <tymp> - there's the wiki stuff
[7:38pm] <tymp> k
[7:38pm] <tymp> hi ho meho
[7:39pm] <vagrantc> i would love to do some packaging skill-share
[7:39pm] <tymp> metavor : what is your idea
[7:39pm] <metavor> Installing the GTK-QT Engine
[7:39pm] <tymp> i want to set up a repository here.. but not before october
[7:40pm] <metavor> It makes GTK apps use KDE themes when run under KDE
[7:40pm] <vagrantc> so, perhaps we can table this, post to the distro list, and hopefully not get ignored? :)
[7:40pm] <tymp> metavor, so we'll see if we hav time...
[7:40pm] <tymp> vagrantc, that seems like a good thing to try
[7:40pm] <metavor> Time to do it or time on the agenda?
[7:40pm] <tymp> on the agenda 
[7:40pm] <tymp> :)
[7:40pm] <metavor> Okay.
[7:40pm] <skippy> do we need to talk about mini-dinstall / reprepro ?
[7:41pm] <tymp> but you should maybe send something to distro@ about it too ,metavor
[7:41pm] <vagrantc> breifly?
[7:41pm] <tymp> yes, mini-dinstall/reprepro
[7:41pm] <skippy> why were they added to the agenda? What do we need to know>
[7:41pm] <vagrantc> in short, it would be nice to have the archive structure set up in such a way that it's easier to mirror.
[7:42pm] <vagrantc> tools such as debpartial-mirror (used to build the package repository for CD creation) expect a certain layout ..
[7:42pm] <tymp> it's in a nonstandard format now, huh?
[7:42pm] <gate_> I like the idea and am go for either, since I have to learn to use both
[7:42pm] <vagrantc> it's a standard, but the sloppiest one.
[7:43pm] <tymp> i was thinking the next meeting should be in two weeks?  (wondering if we can get commitments to check things out, including mini-dinstall/etc)
[7:43pm] <vagrantc> again, i can post more to the list about the packaging archives issue.
[7:43pm] <tymp> i will look into it as much as possible... 
[7:44pm] <metavor> I could probably show up in two weeks.
[7:44pm] * vagrantc feels we have under-utilized the list since we started having frequent irc meetings
[7:44pm] <gate_> vagrantc: do you have a preference
[7:44pm] <tymp> vagrantc, can you estimate the time involved in learning these tools and setting up a mirror/repository/archive
[7:44pm] <tymp> vagrantc, probably so
[7:44pm] <vagrantc> gate_: i could see using both mini-dinstall and reprepro for different purposes
[7:45pm] <skippy> can you highlight the different purposes briefly?
[7:45pm] <vagrantc> i already have a howto that covers mini-dinstall pretty good. it's easy to set up.
[7:45pm] <skippy> so we can decide whether this is a group-wide issue, or not?
[7:45pm] <vagrantc> mini-dinstall would probably be better for a testing repository that any of the distro developers can upload packages to
[7:46pm] <vagrantc> reprepro is probably better for making a repository for our "stable" packages.
[7:46pm] <vagrantc> and maybe "official" experiemntal releases
[7:47pm] <vagrantc> we could also easily replicate much of the functionality of reprepro with a couple scripts, and get a little more flexibility in the process.
[7:48pm] <vagrantc> reprepro would also be useful for doing things like mirroring packages from etch or sid/unstable that we might consider using for freekbox3
[7:48pm] <tymp> so... try mini-dinstall first, an we have a bit longer to try and get reprepro sussed
[7:49pm] * tymp wonders if we should move on
[7:49pm] <vagrantc> i use reprepro regularly ... i should probably document it on the wiki.
[7:49pm] Joins: romdos (n=romsos@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) Clones: meho & RiFraS & vagrantc [9 users]
[7:49pm] <vagrantc> move on, yes.
[7:49pm] <vagrantc> romdos: you!
[7:49pm] <tymp> yay, more commitments for vagrantc!
[7:49pm] <tymp> romdos : whats up
[7:49pm] <tymp> i guess this is all of us?
[7:50pm] <romdos> sorry i'm late, trying to get everything going after my little vacation
[7:50pm] * romdos is a little out of breath
[7:50pm] * vagrantc cheers for vacations
[7:50pm] <tymp> romdos : we just discussed dinstall and reprepro a bit
[7:50pm] <vagrantc> tymp: mini-dinstall.
[7:50pm] <romdos> did stillflame mention hal?
[7:50pm] <tymp> aye
[7:50pm] <vagrantc> tymp: dinstall is a whole different game.
[7:50pm] <tymp> k
[7:50pm] <tymp> what is hal
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> "hardware abstraction layer" ?
[7:51pm] <romdos> HAL provides an abstract view on hardware.
[7:51pm] <romdos> .
[7:51pm] <romdos> This abstraction layer is simply an interface that makes it possible to
[7:51pm] <romdos> add support for new devices and new ways of connecting devices to the
[7:51pm] <romdos> computer, without modifying every application that uses the device.
[7:51pm] <romdos> It maintains a list of devices that currently exist, and can provide
[7:51pm] <gate_> gnome uses it for things
[7:51pm] <romdos> information about those upon request.
[7:51pm] <gate_> I beleive kde will too soon
[7:52pm] <vagrantc> so ... what should we discuss next?
[7:52pm] <tymp> ok, something else that should be talked about on the list : hal
[7:52pm] <romdos> stillflame says it is only good for a single user system
[7:52pm] <romdos> sorry i'm offtopic
[7:52pm] <tymp> no prob
[7:53pm] <gate_> we can talk about the trimming
[7:53pm] <gate_> and video player
[7:53pm] <vagrantc> sounds good to me...
[7:53pm] <gate_> i did a bit of cleaning of the gnome packages tonight
[7:53pm] <gate_> and yes dasher got the boot
[7:53pm] <tymp> how much? mb?
[7:53pm] <gate_> I beleive I removed abotu 50
[7:54pm] <gate_> and added 13
[7:54pm] <tymp> cool!
[7:54pm] <gate_> vlc
[7:54pm] <tymp> oh :(
[7:54pm] <tymp> jk
[7:54pm] <vagrantc> gate_: in packag size, or installed size?
[7:54pm] <gate_> package size
[7:54pm] Joins: stillflame (n=stillfla@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) Clones: meho & RiFraS & romdos & vagrantc [10 users]
[7:54pm] <vagrantc> nice.
[7:54pm] <tymp> so ~37
[7:54pm] <tymp> wow, look at all these people!
[7:55pm] <vagrantc> gate_: did you commit the new package list anywhere ?
[7:55pm] <gate_> to the columbus svn
[7:55pm] <vagrantc> gate_: which one?
[7:55pm] <gate_> freebox
[7:55pm] <gate_> I'm not setup for the new one yet
[7:55pm] <tymp> ..we need to get things set up to all work with the new svn..
[7:56pm] <tymp> hopefully within two wks
[7:56pm] * tymp has mastered the obvious
[7:56pm] <vagrantc> my most recent CD build was 688MB ... the big packages dropped were dasher and dict-gcide.
[7:57pm] <skippy> tymp: I believe we're waitng for FG/PDX to confirm that SVN works as they want/expect it to work
[7:57pm] <vagrantc> i also did a little more trimming of packages that got included on the CD that nobody asked for.
[7:58pm] <tymp> skippy : i need to play with it more as well, and what's a way to encourage pdx to confirm that?
[7:58pm] <vagrantc> i look forward to a new build with gate_'s new package list.
[7:58pm] <tymp> vagrantc : is there a new iso to test?
[7:59pm] <tymp> vagrantc : i'd like one that just fixes the final hanging cd-prompt, so i can tell people to install it without any special instructions
[7:59pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i could make a new one ... my recent builds have all had un-released cvs packages.
[7:59pm] <vagrantc> and are built with un-released version of simple-cdd, too.
[7:59pm] <tymp> i think the 'release' version is still just freekbox3, no?
[8:00pm] <vagrantc> ?
[8:00pm] <tymp> *release version of freekbox.iso
[8:00pm] <tymp> *release, as in, ready to release
[8:00pm] <vagrantc> no, i made a new one that included the packages for the other profiles
[8:00pm] <tymp> or, is that still up in the air
[8:00pm] <vagrantc> but the other profiles do not have working debconf preseeding or post-install scripts
[8:01pm] <tymp> yes, but are those profiles ready to go?  oly is ready for oly, but that's all
[8:01pm] <vagrantc> the freekbox3-gnome profile only installs the packages, it doesn't do any of the customizations, ditto for freekbox3-fgoly
[8:02pm] <gate_> I just need to do a svn co to actually get to work on it
[8:02pm] <tymp> so - is there a shorter term purpose to having a cd ?  shorter term than having the whole ball of wax ready?
[8:02pm] <skippy> gate_: all the customization currently takes place in the takeover.py, yes?
[8:02pm] <tymp> i have a shorter term purpose, but if it's just me, then...
[8:02pm] <gate_> in our version yes
[8:03pm] <tymp> gate_, a shorter term purpose to having a freEbox cd?
[8:03pm] <vagrantc> i could probably easily do exactly what we did for freekbox3 profile for freekbox3-gnome, by grabbing "freebox" packages.
[8:04pm] <tymp> ... if you had a takeovercmh script and a takeoveroly script?
[8:04pm] <vagrantc> at any rate... we're off topic ... we've done some package trimming, and it's looking better :)
[8:04pm] <gate_> I'm willing to do the work, just need to get a check out. Been a bit busy with a move this last few weeks
[8:04pm] <vagrantc> tymp: yes.
[8:04pm] <tymp> ok, well that's good to know...
[8:05pm] <vagrantc> i will not be able to commit to anything past october ... so i'd like to get a decent CD image out there before then :)
[8:05pm] <gate_> I'm sure their will be some more package trimming after the columbus meeting this thursday
[8:05pm] <tymp> having trouble seeing how much our agenda will lead toward action..
[8:05pm] <gate_> so on the video topic
[8:05pm] <tymp> ok, so, before october.. that's important
[8:06pm] <vagrantc> tymp: well, end of october.
[8:06pm] <tymp> ok
[8:06pm] <tymp> what do we want to get out of talking about video player options?
[8:06pm] <tymp> er, media player
[8:06pm] <tymp> gate_, that's what you're referring to, no?
[8:06pm] <gate_> yes
[8:07pm] <vagrantc> i'd like to know if we can commit to vlc, or if we need to explore xine, or some other option (seems like gstreaming might do some of that?)
[8:07pm] <vagrantc> gstreamer
[8:07pm] <tymp> i feel a need to do more experimenting, reading, etc... and i'd like to see some pros and cons thrown out for any media player options..
[8:08pm] <gate_> I want to check out vlc a bit more. xine has always been confusing in my option
[8:08pm] <vagrantc> or, tentatively commit, i think is more what i meant ... i.e. if we release a CD, i'd like to see some media player on it.
[8:08pm] <tymp> like, this is obviously not the best place to go into technical details, but if there were some list of what the factors are, etc... 
[8:09pm] <vagrantc> if at all possible, sticking to packages in sarge would be ideal.
[8:09pm] <skippy> Debian supports MP3 _playback_ out of the box, right? It is strictly mp3 _encoding_ that they don't support in the core distribution ?
[8:09pm] <stillflame> ogle has been recommended as a good dvd player by a couple build teachers
[8:09pm] <tymp> those are both in sarge..
[8:10pm] <stillflame> skippy: that's my understanding
[8:10pm] <tymp> we need a list.  i'm thinking vlc is strongest right at the moment, because it's advantages have been most documented here..
[8:10pm] <gate_> does debian provide dvd decryption
[8:10pm] <skippy> gate_: not directly, but the VLC folks have a library for it.
[8:10pm] <gate_> so its something we have to add in extra, right
[8:11pm] <tymp> ... i am pretty confused about some of the distionctions between players and encoders, etc.  what is totem?
[8:12pm] <gate_> a gtk based video player
[8:12pm] <vagrantc> we may not be able to legally add certain things like codecs or whatever they're called.
[8:12pm] <tymp> i will start a media player page on the wiki.  list factors that are important.  if you would all contribute?
[8:12pm] <gate_> I say give vlc a try and see how it goes
[8:13pm] <tymp> good
[8:13pm] <vagrantc> shall we move on?
[8:13pm] <tymp> yes
[8:13pm] <tymp> suggest... 
[8:14pm] <vagrantc> frequency of meetings ?
[8:14pm] <tymp> is where to put the logs etc, an issue
[8:14pm] <tymp> ok
[8:14pm] <tymp> bi-monthly?
[8:14pm] <tymp> or, uh, do i mean bi-weekly?
[8:14pm] <gate_> sounds good to me. and use the lists a bit more
[8:14pm] <tymp> yes, the list more
[8:14pm] * vagrantc agrees with gate_
[8:15pm] <vagrantc> how many lists are there, though?
[8:15pm] <tymp> ? 60
[8:15pm] <romdos> bi-weekly: every other week
[8:15pm] <vagrantc> relevent to freegeek distro development?
[8:15pm] <tymp> k
[8:15pm] <gate_> ok, use the distro list
[8:15pm] <tymp> yes, maybe others too..  coders? build? freekbox?
[8:16pm] <tymp> (tymp thinks fgpdx should make some umbrella lists)
[8:16pm] <gate_> I think that a bad idea
[8:16pm] <gate_> their are too many lists as it is
[8:17pm] <tymp> i mean, tech@freegeek would send you everything posted to distro, coders, etc
[8:17pm] <vagrantc> let's stick with the distro list. we are, after all, the distro group.
[8:17pm] <tymp> that's fine
[8:18pm] <vagrantc> stomp out cross-posting!
[8:18pm] <vagrantc> so twice a month (to avoid ambiguity) sound good to folks?
[8:18pm] <gate_> sounds good to me
[8:19pm] <tymp> next?
[8:19pm] <vagrantc> 2nd and 4th tuesday, maybe?
[8:19pm] <vagrantc> (since next week will be the 1st tuesday)
[8:19pm] <tymp> why not just every-other week
[8:19pm] <romdos> yes, it is hard for me to be completly present for weekly meetings
[8:19pm] <tymp> less confusing
[8:19pm] <vagrantc> tymp: more confusing.
[8:19pm] <tymp> disagreed
[8:20pm] <vagrantc> you can look on a calendar and know which day of the month it is.
[8:20pm] <romdos> 2nd and 4th tuesdays would work for me
[8:20pm] <vagrantc> the other way requires remembering if you had a metting the previous week, or the week before.
[8:20pm] <metavor> I'm for 2 and 4
[8:20pm] <gate_> adding to my cal now
[8:21pm] <vagrantc> it would be more in sync with the way freegeek portland does meetings, and is easier to fit on calendar.
[8:21pm] <tymp> lets move on
[8:21pm] <vagrantc> this is a long topic, but did folks read the user-oriented-design stuff?
[8:21pm] <gate_> so is the 13th or 6th the first meeting
[8:22pm] <vagrantc> 13th is the 2nd tuesday ...
[8:22pm] * vagrantc uses "cal"
[8:22pm] <vagrantc> 20th would be the 4th.
[8:23pm] <vagrantc> tuesday, that is.
[8:23pm] <gate_> 27th, not 20th
[8:23pm] <tymp> are we stoned?
[8:24pm] <vagrantc> gate_: correct.
[8:24pm] * vagrantc is distracted by the arrival of spiral
[8:24pm] <gate_> next topic then
[8:25pm] <tymp> did everyone read the user oriented design stuff?
[8:25pm] <tymp> if not i think we should put off discussion.
[8:25pm] <tymp> though that is the single most important thing.
[8:25pm] * vagrantc neglected to re-read it
[8:26pm] * tymp things this meeting sucks
[8:26pm] <vagrantc> i think the user-oriented-design stuff is perhaps the hardest stuff to do remotely.
[8:26pm] * metavor is new to distro
[8:26pm] <stillflame> who is facilitating?
[8:26pm] <tymp> you are :)
[8:26pm] <stillflame> :(
[8:26pm] <tymp> hehe
[8:26pm] <tymp> vagrantc : it requires background, i thin
[8:26pm] <tymp> k
[8:27pm] <stillflame> well, then i'm sorry for having done so poor a job of it, but i was notified retroactively :P
[8:27pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: would you consider facilitating the remainder?
[8:27pm] <romdos> i have not read it yet (this time anyway)
[8:27pm] <tymp> i think it's mostly that none of us have had enough time..
[8:28pm] <skippy> from a _build_ standpoint, I think that the lowest common denominator should be the target. That LCD is "never used a computer" in many -- though not all -- ways.
[8:28pm] <tymp> so having more time between, next one should be better
[8:28pm] <vagrantc> metavor: http://wiki.freegeek.org/index.php/User_personae
[8:28pm] <stillflame> we're through up to user-oriented-design, then?
[8:28pm] <tymp> no - it's out of order
[8:28pm] <metavor> Thank vagrantc
[8:29pm] <vagrantc> metavor: also see the topic for a lot of links
[8:29pm] <skippy> during the actual adoption class, I assume those more savvy would be in a position to progress quickly through the basic, and on to more advanced customization of their system.
[8:29pm] <metavor> My idea is along these lines
[8:29pm] <tymp> skippy, did you get a chance to read the paper?
[8:29pm] <skippy> tymp: yes, I read it.
[8:29pm] <tymp> cool
[8:30pm] <vagrantc> skippy: sometimes the most savvy are the most difficult to learn.
[8:30pm] <metavor> Actually, I have two ideas. Only one can be dones now, however.
[8:30pm] <metavor> s/dones/done/
[8:30pm] <tymp> (metavor): are you on the mailing list?
[8:30pm] <vagrantc> skippy: or ... people who feel most comfortable with computers have the most difficulty with linux.
[8:30pm] <skippy> vagrantc: "teaching" is a different group than "build"
[8:30pm] <stillflame> okay. lemme just make sure then - are we done with the unfinished items from last meeting?
[8:31pm] <metavor> tymp, no
[8:31pm] <vagrantc> skippy: in my year of build, the people who did best often had the least expeience.
[8:31pm] <tymp> metavor : http://lists.freegeek.org/mailman/listinfo/distro .. i think
[8:31pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: we agreed to postpone unfinished items till further conversation
[8:31pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: till next meeting
[8:32pm] <skippy> vagrantc: I suspect there's a disconnect here. I'm speaking about the lowest common denominator in terms of our target personae for the distro group.
[8:32pm] <metavor> aunt tillie?
[8:32pm] <vagrantc> skippy: ah. got it.
[8:32pm] <skippy> Ah, I should have said "distro" instead of "build" avoce.
[8:32pm] <tymp> lovely!
[8:32pm] <tymp> (metavor): lovely?
[8:32pm] <skippy> s/avoce/above/
[8:32pm] <tymp> ack, lovely!
[8:33pm] <tymp> lol. we are all stoned
[8:33pm] <tymp> :P
[8:33pm] <stillflame> okay. so vagrant - you're presenting on user-oriented stuff. what do we need to discuss about it?
[8:33pm] <tymp> did everyone go over the minutes from last week?
[8:33pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: we need to fulfil the commitment from last meeting to read background material.
[8:34pm] <vagrantc> mostly, i don't think there is a lot to discuss at the moment.
[8:34pm] <vagrantc> though skippy presented some interesting ideas about which personae to focus on.
[8:34pm] <vagrantc> if we start with designing for the adoption category, we can maybe work in the other personae later.
[8:34pm] <skippy> I suggest that we not wait for the full group to read up. Those of us who have read can start the discussion, and those who need to catch up can take our comments in context later
[8:35pm] <vagrantc> skippy: a good, pragmatic idea :)
[8:37pm] <vagrantc> in my discussing with enrico (the author of the paper guiding some of this stuff), he suggested trying to reduce the number of personae we have defined.
[8:37pm] <vagrantc> by looking for comonalities between them.
[8:38pm] <skippy> the largest commonality in the FG-specific personae is declared right on the page : "All these people have had no experience with computers, except that..."
[8:38pm] <vagrantc> should we try and hash-out some of the commonalities right now?
[8:38pm] <tymp> what is left on the agenda
[8:38pm] <tymp> and how much time - i'd like to be done by 9
[8:38pm] <stillflame> what have you discussed so far?
[8:38pm] <stillflame> i've seen vlc
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> skippy: the one problem with that statement is it's totally wrong.
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> skippy: some of the personae explicitly have computer experience.
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> like Alice-David.
[8:39pm] <tymp> stillflame : packaging, somewhat, and put off till next time
[8:40pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: frequency is discussed and sort of agreed to or something.
[8:40pm] <tymp> yes : sept 6 & 27
[8:40pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: package trimming for CD was touched on
[8:40pm] <stillflame> okay. well - don't see anything pressing on the agenda that can't wait till next time, so i would recommend we spend 15 minutes on this and then finsh.
[8:40pm] <tymp> ack
[8:40pm] <stillflame> ish
[8:41pm] <tymp> um, i'd like to check commitments
[8:41pm] <tymp> sept 13 & 27
[8:42pm] <tymp> - fgoly suggestions don't impact the manual, except for screenshots
[8:42pm] <stillflame> yeah, that is an important task
[8:42pm] * vagrantc scribbles 13 and 27 somewhere
[8:42pm] <tymp>  - screenshots, which is trivial
[8:43pm] <tymp> skippy : i think i know, but address your commitments?
[8:43pm] <stillflame> skippy: you done researching popcon?
[8:43pm] <tymp> jinx
[8:43pm] <stillflame> :)
[8:43pm] <vagrantc> i put up a very basic wiki for playing nice with version control, and posted my package removal suggestions to the distro list. links in the meeting topic.
[8:43pm] <skippy> stillflame: I've not yet set up a popcon server, because there was still a little ambiguity about how to get HTTP POST into Sarge's popcon.
[8:44pm] <stillflame> okay, we'll carry that over.
[8:44pm] <stillflame> skippy: the svn import, then?
[8:44pm] <skippy> vagrantc proposed using a backport; I had proposed using a custom wrapper in a cron job.
[8:44pm] <skippy> stillflame: the svn import is finished, and waiting an official "sign off" from you folks.
[8:44pm] <tymp> skippy : i think you should do whatever is easiest for now
[8:44pm] <skippy> then I will re-import again, taking care to make the SVN backend fsfs instead of bdb.
[8:45pm] <stillflame> skippy: well, you did a test run of it and that worked, so now we should shut down cvs, make a last image of it, and then import it again.
[8:45pm] <tymp> skippy : the plan is to have roughly a month to play with it, no?
[8:45pm] <skippy> tymp: that's the timeframe I've heard, but I've not seen much discussion on the matter.
[8:46pm] <skippy> stillflame: vagrantc expressed some concern over potential incompatibilities between Sarge's svn client and my server's Etch svn server.
[8:46pm] <vagrantc> i would like to have time to figure out irc bot and buidbot issues for the new svn.
[8:46pm] <vagrantc> skippy: it's more a future compatibility issue than a current one.
[8:46pm] <tymp> checkin 9/13 and try to be ready 9/27?
[8:47pm] <skippy> vagrantc: can you explain that to me?
[8:47pm] <skippy> a future compatibility issue?
[8:48pm] <tymp> etch is bound to change?
[8:48pm] <vagrantc> skippy: we have no idea what version of svn *will* be in etch, an incompatibilities could be introduced somewhere along the way. subversion is a relatively young system.
[8:48pm] <stillflame> if etch moves forward and leaves sarge behind
[8:48pm] <gate_> that kind of worries me too
[8:49pm] <stillflame> is the sarge svn broken in any significant way, or does it lack needed features?
[8:50pm] <skippy> well, we know that the cvs2svn import process works (so far). If someone with a dedicated Sarge server would prefer to manage the repository, there will be no hard feelings from me.
[8:50pm] <gate_> I don't think so
[8:51pm] <skippy> My server runs Testing, for various reasons. I'm not going to downgrade it. So if my server is an impediment, it's no bother to me to remove my server from the equation.
[8:51pm] <tymp> but then we are back to waiting for pdx :)
[8:51pm] <tymp> basically
[8:51pm] <gate_> I would throw it up on one of my statics but I'm short a box right now. the only think I can spare is a ppro 233
[8:52pm] <tymp> gate_ i can send you 10 boxes if you pay postage :)
[8:52pm] <tymp> we don't have the tech-help here to manage it in the next month
[8:52pm] <skippy> if FGCMH had better bandwidth at our facility, I'd happily host it there.
[8:53pm] <skippy> or if I win the lottery, I'd upgrade my DSL to get more static IPs. ;)
[8:53pm] <gate_> postage can't be too much for a box, u sending it preconfigured
[8:53pm] <metavor> I gotta go soon. Will we be able to discuss my idea soon or should I send it to the mailing list?
[8:54pm] <stillflame> svn.freegeek.org exists, as you know, but i've yet to have the time to make it a fully working server
[8:54pm] -lilo- [Global Notice] Good morning, all. In just under 5 minutes, we'll be restarting most of the network. It will be very noisy and we hope it goes smoothly. Wish us luck and see you on the other side!
[8:54pm] <skippy> stillflame: is it a dedicated system? I can volunteer to prep it, according to your written spec, if you provide me access.
[8:54pm] <tymp> gate_ : seriously?  well, i can also set it up here and you can do it remotely, but yes, .. installed with freekbox ..
[8:55pm] <tymp> or whatever
[8:55pm] <tymp> er, define preconfigured
[8:55pm] <metavor> err, never mind. My clock is set for central time.
[8:55pm] <tymp> haha
[8:55pm] <tymp> metavor's idea was gtk-qt
[8:56pm] <tymp> i found out ... i can get a 7megabit connection here for $52/month
[8:56pm] <gate_> dam, thats nice
[8:56pm] <stillflame> skippy: hmm, that may be a good idea. okay. how about i commit to getting svn working, with as much of skippy's help as i can get.
[8:56pm] <tymp> surprised me
[8:57pm] <gate_> I second that idea
[8:57pm] <stillflame> meho isn't here, but he did his commitment of providing a tarball of cvs
[8:57pm] <tymp> stillflame : that'd be sweet
[8:57pm] <tymp> stillflame : yes
[8:57pm] <skippy> stillflame: should I email you my public key?
[8:57pm] <stillflame> skippy: please.
[8:57pm] <skippy> address?
[8:57pm] * stillflame @freegeek.org
[8:57pm] <vagrantc> one minute left?
[8:58pm] <tymp> i have 3
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(%) There are 7185 listed and 7949 unlisted users on 22 servers
(%) 22 flagged staff members
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(%) I have 1593 clients and 0 servers
(%) Current local users: 1593 Max: 1593
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(%) Highest connection count: 1593 (1592 clients) (1695 since server was (re)started)
[8:59pm] * Attempting to rejoin channel #freegeek-distro
(%) tymp sets mode: +i (+i)
(%) Now talking in #freegeek-distro.
[8:59pm] Joins: tymp (n=tblernk@70-56-89-95.tukw.qwest.net) [1 user]
(%) Topic is 'meeting tonight: http://wiki.freegeek.org/index.php/Distro/irc20050830'
(%) Set by vagrantc on Tuesday, August 30th, 2005 at 11:57am
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(%) Channel Modes: +sn
(%) Created on Tuesday, August 16th, 2005 at 7:18pm
(%) ##overflow Channel Modes: +smtncP
(%) #postgresql Channel Modes: +tn
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[8:59pm] <vagrantc> i need to be gone.
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[8:59pm] <vagrantc> kladfjglksdgf
[8:59pm] -NickServ- The nickname [tymp] is not registered
[8:59pm] -ChanServ- [##overflow] You've reached this channel because the channel you tried to enter has been configured with join throttling (+J). There may be a clonebot attack in progress there, or simply unusually heavy interest. Please leave this channel and try again. Your channel may also be "identified-only" (+r); join #please_register for more information. If you need help, message a freenode staffer or email staff@freenode.net .... Thanks!
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[8:59pm] <vagrantc> gah.
[8:59pm] <stillflame> woo! netsplity
[8:59pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: your commits?
[8:59pm] <tymp> jeez
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[8:59pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: just say done or carry over
[9:00pm] <stillflame> okay, i'll take that as a carry over.
[9:00pm] <tymp> i would like to suggest that we try to support vagrantc as much as possible, as he seems to be pulling most of the weight..
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[9:00pm] * vagrantc is gone
[9:00pm] <tymp> stillflame : here he is
[9:00pm] <tymp> dot
[9:00pm] <tymp> doh
[9:00pm] <tymp> double doh
[9:00pm] <tymp> vagrantc : really?
[9:01pm] <stillflame> no worries. i saw that he did post the package removal suggestions already, so that one's done.
[9:01pm] <tymp> okay, what i said, and i'd love if folks would be able to check out or at least look at
[9:01pm] <tymp> ..
[9:01pm] <gate> I'm going to try and setup the freekbox-gnome package
[9:01pm] <stillflame> and the "play nice ..." page is created, but not really done.
[9:02pm] <skippy|away> gate: I'll help as I can. i'll need some education. Can we schedule to spend some time together on Thursday?
[9:02pm] <tymp> http://fgoly.org/fileshare/rob/fbo.html
[9:02pm] <tymp> so that this can get included, or as much as possible
[9:02pm] <tymp> and everyone join the distro list who hasn't!
[9:03pm] <gate> skippy: sounds good to me. I can usually be at the firehouse around 6 on thursday
[9:03pm] <stillflame> lastly, we all needed to have read through the user-oriented zen-paper and touched up the personae
[9:03pm] <stillflame> which i'm thinking is a carryover
[9:03pm] <tymp> i didn't look enough at the personae
[9:03pm] <tymp> yes
[9:03pm] <tymp> stillflame : thanks
[9:03pm] <stillflame> and it'll be directly discussed next meeting too.
[9:03pm] <stillflame> tymp: np
[9:03pm] <gate> ok well I need to go walk the dog so I can go to bed. so I'm out of here
[9:04pm] <skippy|away> g'night
[9:04pm] Parts: gate (n=gate@cpe-24-210-70-207.columbus.res.rr.com) [9 users]
[9:04pm] <stillflame> i'll also post a note to distro asking someone to commit to being facilitator for the next meeting.
[9:04pm] <tymp> cool
[9:04pm] <skippy|away> what's the date of the next meeting?
[9:05pm] <tymp> i will post the log 
[9:05pm] <tymp> 9/13
[9:05pm] <tymp> alright, to hell with this :)
[9:05pm] <skippy|away> be well, all.
[9:06pm] Parts: skippy|away (n=nnnnskip@skippy.net) ("Leaving") [8 users]