Difference between revisions of "Distro/irc20050913"

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* date: Sep 13, 2005
 
* date: Sep 13, 2005
 
* checkin time: 7-7:15pm PDT -0700 (10-10:15pm EDT)
 
* checkin time: 7-7:15pm PDT -0700 (10-10:15pm EDT)
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== log / summary ==  
 
== log / summary ==  
 
=== Present ===
 
=== Present ===
−
present: skippy(scott in columbus - facilitator), tymp(rob in olympia), vagrant("freegeek at large"), gate(greg, columbus), romdos(dave, pdx), stillflame(martin, pdx), WormRunner(michael, pdx), meho(matteo, pdx)
+
skippy(scott in columbus - facilitator), tymp(rob in olympia), vagrant("freegeek at large"), gate(greg, columbus), romdos(dave, pdx), stillflame(martin, pdx), WormRunner(michael, pdx), meho(matteo, pdx)
  
 
=== Summary ===
 
=== Summary ===
Line 101: Line 103:
  
 
=== Commitments ===
 
=== Commitments ===
−
[7:26pm] <stillflame> okay, COMMIT: to get tested a freekbox3 package release
+
martin:
 +
* get tested a freekbox3 package release
 +
* post instructions to pdx QC process.
 +
* finish svn, add user access (either ssh or webdav)
 +
* post log of meeting
 +
 
 +
scott:
 +
* install and test a popcon server before next meeting.
 +
* take to the distro list the question of objectives for CD images.
 +
 
 +
rob:
 +
* spend 4 hours over next two weeks helping document putting packages packages in repository (michael wanted to help with this "as long as I can poke you enough where I fail to understand")
 +
* post summary of meeting
 +
 
 +
michael:
 +
* I will email the adoptionteachers list [to arrange a meeting to discuss developing user personae]
  
−
[7:28pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: post instructions to pdx QC process.
+
vagrant:
 +
* document freekbox3 installer CD build cycle
 +
* hand-roll package repository scripts until a better method is devised.
  
−
[7:43pm] <skippy> commit: allow vagrantc to hand-roll packages until a better method is devised.
+
matteo:
 +
* attend next meeting
  
−
[7:46pm] <tymp> commit : spend 4 hours over next two weeks helping document putting packages
+
somebody:
 +
* get feedback from build teachers [on user personae].
  
 +
=== Full Log ===
 +
<pre>[7:10pm] <vagrantc> we also, in addition to logging the meeting notes, should find someone like ideath to consolidate the notes after the meeting ... i spent probably half an hour reading through the log mostly just to get commitments from folks.
 +
[7:10pm] <stillflame> re: notes, i'm logging and can post them up afterwards. is that enough?
 +
[7:10pm] <stillflame> right.
 +
[7:11pm] <WormRunner> vagrantc: thanks
 +
[7:11pm] <stillflame> i won't have time to do the log parsing.
 +
[7:12pm] <stillflame> at least, not in the next week.
 +
[7:12pm] <tymp> i'll try to note the main points to post as well - though won't likely have time to parse the log soon either
 +
[7:12pm] <stillflame> how about we agree to an easily searchable commitment format, like "COMMIT: ..."
 +
[7:12pm] <tymp> good idea
 +
[7:13pm] <WormRunner> yes
 +
[7:13pm] <tymp> is anyone pseudo-facilitating?
 +
[7:13pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: very clever
 +
[7:13pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i think that would be skippy
 +
[7:13pm] <tymp> great
 +
[7:14pm] <stillflame> that also could be used for decisions ("DECISION: ...") or anything else we deem important.
 +
[7:14pm] <skippy> okay -- it's about that time.
 +
[7:15pm] <tymp> ..something for future agenda items too?  agenda:
 +
[7:15pm] * stillflame nods.
 +
[7:15pm] <skippy> check in. Who's present.
 +
[7:15pm] <skippy> skippy, freegeek columbus.
 +
[7:15pm] <tymp> hi, rob here in olympia.. 
 +
[7:16pm] <vagrantc> i'm here, but i haven't had a lot of time to work on distro ... i'm part of freegeek at large :)
 +
[7:16pm] <gate> greg, columbus
 +
[7:16pm] <stillflame> i'm coming out of freegeek portland oregon
 +
[7:16pm] <romdos> dave, pdx
 +
[7:16pm] * stillflame pokes WormRunner
 +
[7:16pm] <skippy> has everyone reviewed the agenda? Any last minute changes / additions ?
 +
[7:16pm] <WormRunner> michael, portland fg
 +
[7:17pm] * vagrantc notices that the agenda is in the topic for this channel
 +
[7:18pm] <tymp> skippy : i reviewed it, would say go with it ..
 +
[7:18pm] * stillflame is good
 +
[7:18pm] <skippy> first item: unfinished biz.
 +
[7:18pm] <skippy> 1a) FB3 packaging.
 +
[7:19pm] <skippy> who wants to speak about that?
 +
[7:19pm] <tymp> ..not sure whether the listed items are that relevant at this moment..
 +
[7:19pm] <tymp> maybe more important is the recent distro conversation between vagrantc and gate
 +
[7:19pm] <tymp> is that the same topic?
 +
[7:19pm] <vagrantc> i can talk about packaging, if we want to talk about it now.
 +
[7:19pm] <tymp> oi
 +
[7:19pm] <gate> sounds fun
 +
[7:20pm] <skippy> go ahead, vagrantc
 +
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i would say it's a third topic on that theme, but it's also a new item
 +
[7:20pm] * tymp nods
 +
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> so, i want to get new "official" freekbox3 packages, since there have been a lot of changes in cvs not present in the released packages (0.1.2)
 +
[7:21pm] <vagrantc> i need some people to test new packages, and ideally folks from freegeek portland.
 +
[7:21pm] <vagrantc> that's the first item.
 +
[7:21pm] <gate> sounds like a good idea, release before we break it
 +
[7:21pm] <tymp> is there any procedure established for getting the packages updated?
 +
[7:21pm] <vagrantc> it would ease the CD building considerably ... any takers?
 +
[7:21pm] <tymp> i mean, for getting agreement to take action on that?
 +
[7:22pm] <tymp> vagrantc : you're asking for someone to *do* it?
 +
[7:22pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: i can offer to have available users try out installer disks.
 +
[7:22pm] <stillflame> provided there's an iso i can burn from
 +
[7:22pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i can build the packages, or help someone build the packages, but i need someone to test the packages.
 +
[7:23pm] <WormRunner> I can do an install or two and see how it goes
 +
[7:23pm] <skippy> is there a defined testing criteria / process?
 +
[7:23pm] <vagrantc> not that i'm aware of.
 +
[7:23pm] <skippy> is such a thing necessary?
 +
[7:23pm] <tymp> perhaps its second nature to those in pdx?
 +
[7:23pm] <skippy> What constitutes "testing" ?
 +
[7:24pm] <tymp> yes, i'm not clear either
 +
[7:24pm] <vagrantc> probably go through the QC process ?
 +
[7:24pm] <WormRunner> yeah. for start
 +
[7:24pm] <stillflame> okay
 +
[7:24pm] <vagrantc> maybe have someone who's been a teacher to run through a "class" with it?
 +
[7:25pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: adoption teacher?
 +
[7:25pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: yeah, and build teachers too, probably.
 +
[7:25pm] <skippy> sorry for being obtuse, but does this mean that Oly and CMH are unable to help test?
 +
[7:25pm] <stillflame> WormRunner: can you try to pull an adoption teacher in that?
 +
[7:26pm] <WormRunner> sure. and I have been doing some of that myself
 +
[7:26pm] <vagrantc> anyone who wants to test can give input, but since portland relies on it crucially, i think it's crucial to have testers there.
 +
[7:26pm] <tymp> tangent : i'm going to set about polling for feedback/approval of the gui changes i made... a procedure or suggestions how best to do this would help
 +
[7:26pm] <stillflame> okay, COMMIT: to get tested a freekbox3 package release
 +
[7:27pm] <skippy> but if there's no dcoumented test process, how can we best participate?
 +
[7:27pm] <stillflame> tymp: would the distro RT work?
 +
[7:27pm] <stillflame> skippy: ah, right. i can offer up slightly outdated QC instructions.
 +
[7:27pm] <skippy> stillflame: that would help. please do.
 +
[7:27pm] <vagrantc> skippy: eyeball it up, see if anything is obviously broken ... walk through the adoption class outline, do build QC process ...
 +
[7:28pm] <vagrantc> that's a start.
 +
[7:28pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: post instructions to pdx QC process.
 +
[7:28pm] <tymp> stillflame : yes.  i'm also planning to spam adoption-teachers, build, and something
 +
[7:28pm] <skippy> next item: 1b) new images
 +
[7:29pm] <vagrantc> skippy: could you clarify?
 +
[7:29pm] <skippy> vagrantc: "building new freekbox3 packages".
 +
[7:29pm] <vagrantc> oh, i thought that was what we just covered ?
 +
[7:30pm] <skippy> okay. Item 1c) mini-dinstall / reprepro / hand-rolled
 +
[7:30pm] <vagrantc> again, i put it on the agenda, so i'll summarize
 +
[7:30pm] <vagrantc> basically, it would be helpful to have a more standard package repository format
 +
[7:31pm] <vagrantc> so that tools such as debpartial-mirror and reprepro can more easily mirror our freekbox3 package archive
 +
[7:31pm] <stillflame> what's the cost of doing so?
 +
[7:31pm] <vagrantc> our current archive is at http://web.freegeek.org/freekbox3
 +
[7:32pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: just need to agree on a process for building the archive, and learn different commands.
 +
[7:33pm] <vagrantc> mini-dinstall would be most useful for developers making experimental releases and cvs builds, reprepro would be best for standard archive format for our released packages, and our hand-rolled one could be as good as reprepro, but more flexible ... but it would require writing it.
 +
[7:33pm] <stillflame> so we just need to choose between those three mentioned?
 +
[7:33pm] * stillflame withdraws his last comment
 +
[7:33pm] <gate> by hand is to much work
 +
[7:33pm] <tymp> vagrantc : what do you think is best?
 +
[7:34pm] <vagrantc> gate: "by-hand" means writing a very simple 5-15 line script to do it, and i already have most of it written for the lessdisks project
 +
[7:34pm] <gate> ok so thats not as bad then, I though u ment copy files and then create packages.gz
 +
[7:35pm] <vagrantc> tymp: reprepro might be the easiest to start with, but it likes to delete old packages, whereas i would like to keep them around.
 +
[7:35pm] <tymp> vagrantc : so you are not sure?  seems like no one else is either
 +
[7:35pm] <gate> reprepro sounds bad to me
 +
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> mini-dinstall is the easiest, but the archive format isn't really any better.
 +
[7:36pm] * WormRunner expresses his ignorance of these matters
 +
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> a backported version of reprepro might also satisfy our needs.
 +
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> but then we've got to deal with a backport ...
 +
[7:36pm] <WormRunner> is reprepo modifiable easily?
 +
[7:36pm] <skippy> is one demonstrably better than the others, even if it still has shortcomings?
 +
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's written in C ... so i'd say no.
 +
[7:37pm] <gate> if we have to deal with packports whats wrong with the hand meathod
 +
[7:37pm] <WormRunner> ok
 +
[7:37pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i guess i'm a little inclined towards hand-rolled scripts ...
 +
[7:37pm] <tymp> if we said hand-rolled, what would be a resonable deadline to have that?
 +
[7:38pm] <gate> does apt-move or any other tools help with it
 +
[7:38pm] <tymp> ie, how urgent vs time required and available
 +
[7:38pm] <vagrantc> the exact tool isn't even that important, in my opinion ... i guess it's more an issue of process- how do we decide what goes into the package repository, who does it, etc.
 +
[7:39pm] <stillflame> what's the importance of serving up old package versions?
 +
[7:39pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i could get a functional archive working in a matter of days with the hand-rolled method.
 +
[7:39pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: historical relevence, easy to revert if we broke something badly
 +
[7:39pm] <gate> all the stable releases should stay and maybe an auto build after a cvs commit
 +
[7:39pm] <skippy> can we rsync or manually copy old packaes in some way?
 +
[7:40pm] <vagrantc> we could use a method that uses both mini-dinstall and some other method ...
 +
[7:40pm] * tymp really has no investment yet in this issue
 +
[7:41pm] <skippy> so, can we take action, or do we need to discuss on the list some more?
 +
[7:41pm] <vagrantc> would anyone want to work with me on these issues, getting it done, getting it documented, and just giving us the ok to just do what we want?
 +
[7:41pm] <vagrantc> within reason :)
 +
[7:42pm] <WormRunner> I would say if vagrantc has an idea of how to get it done and wants to, we could go with his hand-rolled idea
 +
[7:42pm] <tymp> i *want* to, but can't commit this month
 +
[7:42pm] <gate> I would but It will have to hold off till Oct
 +
[7:42pm] <tymp> yay, October!
 +
[7:42pm] <tymp> (me too)
 +
[7:42pm] <vagrantc> ideally, i'd like to have it done by next meeting ...
 +
[7:42pm] <tymp> i second WormRunner
 +
[7:43pm] <tymp> vagrantc : say "commit"? :))
 +
[7:43pm] <vagrantc> i haven't found a co-conspirator yet
 +
[7:43pm] <skippy> commit: allow vagrantc to hand-roll packages until a better method is devised.
 +
[7:43pm] <tymp> what investment will the co-conspiritor need to make?
 +
[7:44pm] <vagrantc> maybe they get to do the documentation- how to put packages into the repository, mainly.
 +
[7:45pm] <vagrantc> so that the documentation works for someone inexperienced with these matters already
 +
[7:45pm] <tymp> i can commit 4 hours before next meeting to that .. ?
 +
[7:45pm] <tymp> .. i think i am inexperienced enough :)
 +
[7:45pm] <vagrantc> i can just do it, and hope that my documentation is good enough
 +
[7:46pm] <vagrantc> and if anyone wants to help, they would be welcome to
 +
[7:46pm] <tymp> commit : spend 4 hours over next two weeks helping document putting packages in repository
 +
[7:46pm] <WormRunner> I would be happy to help document, as long as I can poke you enough where I fail to understand
 +
[7:46pm] <vagrantc> sounds great!
 +
[7:47pm] <skippy> okay; sounds like consensus to me. Vagrant will prepare packages, and WormRunner and tymp will assist documentation.
 +
[7:47pm] <tymp> is communication on the agenda?
 +
[7:47pm] <skippy> next section: on-going business.
 +
[7:47pm] <tymp> is communication on the agenda?
 +
[7:47pm] <skippy> no, tymp, it's not.
 +
[7:47pm] <tymp> i'd like to parking-lot that
 +
[7:48pm] <skippy> what does that mean?
 +
[7:48pm] <tymp> (ie, if we get through the rest of the agenda...)
 +
[7:48pm] <WormRunner> =table
 +
[7:48pm] <skippy> ok. if we get through.
 +
[7:48pm] <WormRunner> I presume
 +
[7:48pm] <tymp> ha, that's simpler
 +
[7:48pm] <skippy> item 2a) user-oriented-design.
 +
[7:48pm] <skippy> has everyone read the Zini paper?
 +
[7:48pm] <gate> yup
 +
[7:48pm] <tymp> yes.
 +
[7:49pm] <skippy> any questions?
 +
[7:49pm] <vagrantc> re-read it earlier today :)
 +
[7:49pm] <tymp> skippy : can you estimate time we should spend on this item?
 +
[7:49pm] <skippy> tymp: it's an on-going agenda item, so I'm comfortable giving this 5 - 10 minutes tops.
 +
[7:49pm] <skippy> does anyone have any questions re: zini ?
 +
[7:50pm] <tymp> well... re this project of doing useroriented design..
 +
[7:50pm] <stillflame> does moving toward more user-centric design imply that we would move to distro to debian-np?
 +
[7:50pm] <tymp> i'd like to see some timeline
 +
[7:50pm] <stillflame> move *the* distro
 +
[7:51pm] <tymp> that seems like something that's worth considering
 +
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: not at all.
 +
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: it is a totally separate issue.
 +
[7:51pm] <skippy> stillflame: I think debian-np is more "business user" oriented.
 +
[7:51pm] <tymp> or, perhaps "move" is too strong
 +
[7:51pm] <stillflame> okay, thanks.
 +
[7:51pm] <skippy> tymp: timeline for this in what way?
 +
[7:51pm] <tymp> goals, dates
 +
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> user-oriented-design is just techniques to inform our design decisions
 +
[7:51pm] <tymp> 1 month, 1 year
 +
[7:52pm] <WormRunner> a way of thinking
 +
[7:52pm] <tymp> i think it's a long-term project
 +
[7:52pm] <vagrantc> it is a life-long project, but i see some specific goals:
 +
[7:52pm] <WormRunner> I think this is a way of thinking we just need to never forget
 +
[7:52pm] <vagrantc> create a persona for each of the freegeek categories
 +
[7:52pm] <vagrantc> trim the adoption program personae down to 1 or 2 personae
 +
[7:53pm] <WormRunner> 3
 +
[7:53pm] <tymp> does anyone else think : there are kinda two projects here 1) bottom-up, working with what we have and making it cleaner, 2) top-down, thinking about what it should be long-term
 +
[7:53pm] <stillflame> so this is something that the adoption teachers should contribute heavily to
 +
[7:53pm] <vagrantc> exactly how many is up for debate, but the fewer the better, or we'll have a very muddy design.
 +
[7:53pm] <WormRunner> ok
 +
[7:54pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: absolutely!
 +
[7:54pm] <WormRunner> stillflame: yes, I think so
 +
[7:54pm] <WormRunner> and support
 +
[7:54pm] <tymp> stillflame : yea, and feedback systems that we hope to build in would contribute
 +
[7:54pm] <vagrantc> i think the most appropriate areas of expertise are adoption teachers and tech support.
 +
[7:55pm] <tymp> i think there's a meta-issue with design that requires a different approach
 +
[7:55pm] <tymp> it's not very technical at all
 +
[7:55pm] <stillflame> okay, i think a physical meeting is needed to really start these personae off, so WormRunner, romdos, meho and/or i need to get a meeting organized with teachers here to define them.
 
[7:56pm] <WormRunner> commit: I will email the adoptionteachers list
 
[7:56pm] <WormRunner> commit: I will email the adoptionteachers list
−
 
+
[7:56pm] <skippy> I've loosely fleshed out what I perceive to be an FGCMH user.
 +
[7:56pm] <vagrantc> hopefully, the various freegeeks will be able to make use of the same personae, but there may be differences to consider.
 +
[7:56pm] <stillflame> WormRunner: and set up a meeting to define personae
 +
[7:56pm] <tymp> the ideal will be one persona
 +
[7:56pm] <tymp> * to have one persona
 +
[7:56pm] <vagrantc> but the ideal is impossible, by the very diversity of freegeek.
 +
[7:57pm] <gate> I don't see the persona as that specific that we could not all get buy with one
 +
[7:57pm] <stillflame> skippy: good. would it be okay for the meeting to try to absorb that persona into another?
 +
[7:57pm] <WormRunner> I see several distinct types of users
 +
[7:57pm] <vagrantc> it should largely be a "sterotypical" user- but defined enough to get a feel for their personality
 +
[7:57pm] <skippy> gate: Maybe not at the moment, but I can envision, say, an Hispanic FreeGeek initiative, that might have different goals from FGCMH
 +
[7:58pm] <skippy> stillflame: you folks are welcome to build upon my start; but I'd like to keep a separate FGCMH persona, so that we don't mis-direct our efforts once we start deploying systems.
 +
[7:58pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's likely that freegeek just has a hard design.
 +
[7:58pm] <gate> well yes but as it currently stands I see maybe 2 at most
 +
[7:59pm] <tymp> i hope we can keep an open mind to agreeing on one
 +
[7:59pm] <vagrantc> skippy: well, once you start deploying systems, you may need to create a persona from scratch and forget about the old one ...
 +
[8:00pm] <skippy> vagrantc: perhaps. But that would happen whether FG/PDX absorbs our persona or not.
 +
[8:00pm] <skippy> gate: did you review my persona sketch ?
 +
[8:00pm] <gate> ya
 +
[8:00pm] <vagrantc> skippy: definitely. and if you're lucky, you'll realise that the other freegeek persona fit you just fine :)
 +
[8:00pm] <gate> I read it a few days back
 +
[8:01pm] Quits: meho (n=matteo@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) ("leaving")
 +
[8:01pm] <skippy> vagrantc: please excuse my skepticism. You may be completely correct; but you folks have a lot of inertia behind a lot of what you've done, and we're in a position to enjoy a fresh start with no preconceived notions. I'd like to use that as much as possible.
 +
[8:01pm] <gate> seems a lot like the rest, just a different background but computer uses were about the same between them
 +
[8:01pm] Joins: meho (n=matteo@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) Clones: romdos & stillflame [10 users]
 +
[8:02pm] <skippy> anyway, we're straying from the task at hand.
 +
[8:02pm] <tymp> skippy : i think your skepticism is sensible.  but the hope would be..
 +
[8:02pm] <vagrantc> skippy: of course. only time will give a real idea if any of the personae are good.
 +
[8:03pm] <tymp> that's more than 10 minutes
 +
[8:03pm] <skippy> it seems to me that the general consensus for the currently defined personae are that they are task-oriented _users_, and not tweakers or customizers.
 +
[8:03pm] <tymp> yes
 +
[8:03pm] <gate> as stated before get the teachers/tech support in here to tell us what really needs done
 +
[8:04pm] <vagrantc> i think it is important to note that all of the existing adoption personae were created by a single person.
 
[8:04pm] <skippy> commit: get feedback from build teachers. (I think someone said that already)
 
[8:04pm] <skippy> commit: get feedback from build teachers. (I think someone said that already)
−
 
+
[8:04pm] <WormRunner> yes
 +
[8:04pm] <gate> just restating so we can move on
 +
[8:04pm] <vagrantc> skippy: though that would largely be for a build persona, not the adoption persona
 +
[8:04pm] <WormRunner> and adoption teachers and tech support
 +
[8:05pm] <WormRunner> so now that we have committed to a process for that, what is next
 +
[8:05pm] <skippy> next item: 2b) prognosis
 +
[8:05pm] <skippy> which I take to include long-term outlook, objectives, and timeline
 +
[8:06pm] <tymp> we're dead in 6 months
 +
[8:06pm] <WormRunner> ?
 +
[8:06pm] <skippy> are you being silly, tymp ?
 +
[8:06pm] <tymp> just kidding
 +
[8:06pm] <tymp> sorry
 +
[8:06pm] <skippy> okay.
 +
[8:06pm] <gate> I was going to say, I just say the doc and she did not tell me this
 +
[8:06pm] <WormRunner> tech support people have no sense of humor. don't confuse us
 +
[8:07pm] <tymp> lol
 +
[8:07pm] <skippy> I think the addition / collaboration of new FGs will help many aspects of the project(s) overall, but it will also slow things down a fai rbit.
 +
[8:07pm] <skippy> we don't have any real milestones for the distro project.
 +
[8:08pm] <skippy> does anyone have any comments before moving on?
 +
[8:08pm] <tymp> yeah, seems like there is a fundamental shift?
 +
[8:08pm] <vagrantc> well, the freekbox3 is an already mostly finished milestone- many systems are already out there being used!
 +
[8:08pm] <tymp> i think skippy means, the project as non-pdx-ers know it
 +
[8:09pm] <WormRunner> and other than some minor stuff, they are working pretty well
 +
[8:09pm] <skippy> I think it's fair to say that the FB3 is an FB/PDX-specific success; and not directly transferrable to start-ups
 +
[8:09pm] <vagrantc> the gnome fork definitely adds a lot of complication, but is leading to a better infrastructure.
 +
[8:09pm] <tymp> but, i do want to the non-locals to not lose sight of all the work pdx has done
 +
[8:09pm] <skippy> PDX has a lot of investment, and it feels to me that they take a lot for granted.
 +
[8:10pm] <skippy> that's neither good nor bad, by the way -- it's just a statement of fact.
 +
[8:10pm] <vagrantc> skippy: any specific examples?
 +
[8:10pm] <tymp> it's to be expected, i think
 +
[8:10pm] <skippy> errr.. perception.
 +
[8:10pm] <tymp> (skippy): i agree, on the whole
 +
[8:11pm] <tymp> well, it is beginning to move -
 +
[8:11pm] <skippy> vagrantc: this discussion shows several examples, vagrantc, as folks talk about build and adoption and teaching.
 +
[8:11pm] <tymp> i think there has not been real motivation to open it up
 +
[8:11pm] <skippy> We have no such hierarchy / definition, so we don't have the same kinds of approach to issues.
 +
[8:11pm] <vagrantc> skippy: definitely.
 +
[8:12pm] <tymp> vagrantc : an example is the installation process - which until recently was assumed to be based on cloning
 +
[8:12pm] <tymp> ("assumed" - in practice)
 +
[8:13pm] <WormRunner> and there has been motion for a long time toward a more standard install
 +
[8:13pm] <vagrantc> basically, freegeek portland had a lot of stuff that basically worked, but is not necessarily easy to replicate or maintain over the long-term, and coordinating with other groups is forcing the project into a good direction.
 +
[8:13pm] <skippy> decision making seems to be "the PDX way, or the highway", to be blunt.
 +
[8:13pm] <WormRunner> good grief
 +
[8:13pm] <tymp> skippy : i think that is a mis-perception.  but i have had that perception too.
 +
[8:14pm] <vagrantc> well, the meeting time is portland-centric ...
 +
[8:14pm] <tymp> i think the central problem is the ease of misunderstanding, rather than any specific inattention or disregard, etc
 +
[8:14pm] <skippy> tymp: that may be the bulk of it.
 +
[8:14pm] <skippy> anyway, do we have any more comments re: prognosis?
 +
[8:15pm] <vagrantc> basically, any group is going to be resistant to changing something that is basically working for them.
 +
[8:15pm] <tymp> i think it's important to respect the special "ownership" of portland over freegeek - if that word is not too ugly
 +
[8:15pm] <tymp> vagrantc : it's just social inertia
 +
[8:15pm] <WormRunner> It seems to me that there is a great deal of movement by portland, and that these meetings are evidence of that
 +
[8:16pm] <vagrantc> tymp: it's more than merely social- it is technical inertia, also.
 +
[8:16pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: it feels to me that portland is less actively involved, at the moment, actually.
 +
[8:16pm] <tymp> vagrantc : by 'just', i mean, just inertia - but i take it back
 +
[8:17pm] <skippy> WormRunner: I hope you're not offended by my comment. I'm not trying to cause trouble, or whine. I'm trying to be honest, because this is something about which I'm passionate (as I assume are all of you).
 +
[8:17pm] <skippy> are there any action items for this prognosis issue?
 +
[8:17pm] <vagrantc> skippy: again, i'd be curious about more of the specifics ?
 +
[8:17pm] <skippy> vagrantc: I suggest we put this on hold for the mailing list.
 +
[8:17pm] <WormRunner> skippy: I am troubled by what I see as an adversarial approach
 +
[8:17pm] <vagrantc> skippy: sounds perfect.
 +
[8:18pm] <WormRunner> skippy: yes
 +
[8:18pm] <skippy> WormRunner: feel free to expand your concerns on the mailing list. I don't think I'm being adversarial.
 +
[8:18pm] <skippy> item 2c) popcon server.
 +
[8:18pm] <skippy> This was my item. I've taken no action on it.
 
[8:19pm] <skippy> Commit: install and test a popcon server before next meeting.
 
[8:19pm] <skippy> Commit: install and test a popcon server before next meeting.
−
 
+
[8:19pm] <tymp> sweet.  that was quick!
 +
[8:19pm] <skippy> item 2d) multi-profile CD.
 +
[8:19pm] <vagrantc> haven't done much on this- last CD build was 699MB, including a lot of the freekbox3-gnome trimming.
 +
[8:20pm] <tymp> what's the date on that?
 +
[8:20pm] <skippy> vagrantc: ought there be a distinction between a "user" multi-profile CD, and a "FreeGeek on a disc" multi-profile CD?
 +
[8:20pm] <vagrantc> september 3rd.
 +
[8:20pm] <gate> I made some non release CDs this week which seemed to work allright but I have not gotten back to them since sunday
 +
[8:20pm] <vagrantc> skippy: maybe. ideally we can fit it all on one CD.
 +
[8:20pm] <tymp> the 8/23 one has some problems - but i didn't feel the need so much to comment, as i'm thinking it's still ... alpha stage?
 +
[8:21pm] <tymp> vagrantc : did you get my comment about the broken cd link on the wiki?
 +
[8:21pm] <vagrantc> skippy: there is so much overlap, i don't see the advantage of the extra overhead required for two CDs.
 +
[8:21pm] <vagrantc> tymp: nope.
 +
[8:22pm] <tymp> in general : what is the intended product of work on multi-installer cd?
 +
[8:22pm] <skippy> vagrantc: I disagree with the need to fit it all on one CD. Many users are not likely to be interested in replicating an FG for themselves. It seems a better investment of our time to provide users with a very focused CD; and give interested parties the extra tools to do what they need to make an FG.
 +
[8:22pm] <gate> ya, the only reason to go two CD is if the packages grow too much
 +
[8:23pm] <tymp> skippy : that is rather what i'd been thinking
 +
[8:23pm] <WormRunner> I have thought it would be good to have a basic CD but a package to install an expanded set of relevant packages
 +
[8:23pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i guess we disagree on what's a better investment of time.
 +
[8:23pm] <stillflame> we currently need to install a few different set of packages: laptops, baseservers and freekboxes.
 +
[8:23pm] <gate> The first time a real package comes up for dropping or adding and size become a consern make two CDs, its pretty easy with simple-ccd
 +
[8:23pm] <stillflame> we = fg.pdx
 +
[8:23pm] <vagrantc> gate: we're already riding on the edge of a 700MB image, though.
 +
[8:23pm] <gate> I know
 +
[8:24pm] <tymp> vagrantc : i still don't see clearly why it's desirable to have a single cd image with all the profiles
 +
[8:24pm] <vagrantc> of course, according to user-oriented design, we should have a separate CD for every persona :)
 +
[8:24pm] <tymp> lol
 +
[8:25pm] <gate> less coasters laying around
 +
[8:25pm] <tymp> but there should be one persona, so, for each of one ;)
 +
[8:25pm] <tymp> gate : laying around *where*
 +
[8:25pm] <gate> my coffee table
 +
[8:25pm] <vagrantc> tymp: well, i don't want to have to maintain two separate images if 90% of it is overlap.
 +
[8:25pm] <skippy> perhaps the FG-on-a-disc could even be a mini-CD?
 +
[8:25pm] <tymp> will portland need to use this in-house?
 +
[8:25pm] <tymp> skippy : business-card
 +
[8:26pm] <skippy> tymp: sure, or thar.
 +
[8:26pm] <skippy> *that
 +
[8:26pm] <WormRunner> the CD is useful even if portland continued to clone
 +
[8:26pm] <skippy> WormRunner: can you elaborate?
 +
[8:27pm] <gate> vagrantc: as long as we maintain good simple-ccd profiles maintaining them is pretty easy
 +
[8:27pm] <tymp> WormRunner : i'm wondering who is the intended user?
 +
[8:27pm] <WormRunner> We grant boxes to people and organizations who may not be in portland and at some point need to reinstall
 +
[8:27pm] <vagrantc> gate: it's still more maintainence, and i would like to stick them all on one CD. but if we can't, oh well.
 +
[8:27pm] <tymp> i think the cd's highest value would be...
 +
[8:27pm] <tymp> WormRunner : exactly what i'm thinking
 +
[8:27pm] <WormRunner> coming back to town is a real hassle
 +
[8:28pm] <gate> I think the aim is one CD but if we can't fit it then o well
 +
[8:28pm] <tymp> i think reinstall is the highest value of the cd
 +
[8:28pm] <WormRunner> and one cd would be best if at all possible
 +
[8:29pm] <skippy> have any packages been marked for removal from the original FreekBox3 build, to squeeze out some extra room?
 +
[8:29pm] <WormRunner> even if it means giving up wesnoth ;-)
 +
[8:29pm] <vagrantc> has anyone actually used two CDs with debian? it's kind of a pain, honestly.
 +
[8:29pm] <skippy> or is the current FB3 locked-in, package wise?
 +
[8:29pm] <tymp> i think aside from reinstallation without ethernet, the cd will not be hugely needed
 +
[8:29pm] * vagrantc does the give up wesnoth dance!
 +
[8:29pm] <tymp> vagrantc : but you can assume broadband
 +
[8:29pm] <WormRunner> lol
 +
[8:29pm] <vagrantc> tymp: that, is a very stupid assumtion.
 +
[8:30pm] <tymp> vagrantc : how come?
 +
[8:30pm] gate (n=gate@cpe-24-210-70-207.columbus.res.rr.com) is now known as {gate}
 +
[8:30pm] <WormRunner> very few of our adopters have broadbanc
 +
[8:30pm] <WormRunner> d
 +
[8:30pm] <vagrantc> tymp: well, even if you have broadband, installing from a CD is *way* faster than a basic DSL connection.
 +
[8:30pm] <tymp> vagrantc : but very few of your adopters will need to install lessdisks
 +
[8:30pm] <skippy> when I said earlier "two CDs", I didn't mean a CD set, a la Debian install CDs. I meant two standalone CDs.
 +
[8:31pm] <skippy> one CD for users, from which they could rebuild their system.
 +
[8:31pm] <vagrantc> skippy: well, for an application server, nearly all of the freekbox3 packages are useful.
 +
[8:31pm] <tymp> vagrantc : what i mean is, the multi-install is not needed by dialup users
 +
[8:31pm] <vagrantc> tymp: of course not.
 +
[8:31pm] <skippy> one CD for FG folks, who want to have a terminal server, and FGdb, and thorough documentation, etc
 +
[8:33pm] <skippy> vagrantc: We don't use an application server (yet), so the utiilty of bundling that on a CD for users is lost on me.
 +
[8:34pm] <tymp> .. so the overall objective is ill-defined
 +
[8:34pm] <skippy> tymp: I'd concur with that.
 +
[8:34pm] <tymp> ugh, too many variables
 +
[8:34pm] <vagrantc> skippy: and having a couple extra menu items is totally unacceptable?
 +
[8:34pm] <tymp> but i am so happy vagrantc has been working on it!
 +
[8:35pm] <skippy> vagrantc: if the target user is not intended to use those menu options, they have no business being present if it's in our control to decide.
 +
[8:35pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i guess, if you want to maintain a separate CD that only has freekbox3 packages, you are welcome to.
 +
[8:35pm] * WormRunner reserves judgement
 +
[8:36pm] <vagrantc> (or freekbox3-gnome, or whatever).
 +
[8:36pm] <tymp> lets step back and clarify the goals - on the list
 +
[8:36pm] <tymp> eh, distro list
 +
[8:36pm] <skippy> well, that's a fine example of "PDX way or the high way".
 +
[8:37pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i live in new mexico at the moment, and am interested in propegating freegeeks everywhere.
 +
[8:37pm] <tymp> skippy : i think it is an example of vagrant is doing all the work so his perspective deserves a little more weight
 +
[8:37pm] <WormRunner> vagrantc is a pdx refugee!
 +
[8:37pm] <tymp> oh jeez  ;)
 +
[8:37pm] <WormRunner> tymp: I agree
 +
[8:37pm] <tymp> edit: * almost all the work
 +
[8:37pm] <skippy> propogating FGs is a different issue than making CDs for users. It was my understanding that it was specifically this issue that was under discussion.
 +
[8:37pm] <WormRunner> lol
 +
[8:38pm] <vagrantc> skippy: people building freegeeks are users.
 +
[8:38pm] <tymp> skippy : everything is prapagation!
 +
[8:38pm] <skippy> tymp: I'd very much like to contribute to the work, but am finding it challenging to find the right entry vector for my current skillset.
 +
[8:38pm] <tymp> skippy : i'm there too at the moment. 
 +
[8:38pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: are you suggesting a personae of "Freegeek Startupist"?
 +
[8:38pm] <{gate}> it shoudl getter beter when we have a place to store code
 +
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> skippy: as gate said, it is not difficult to create extra CD images with simple-cdd ...
 +
[8:39pm] <skippy> if we're all going to simply defer to vagrant, then this entrire agenda item can be entirely excised.
 +
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: perhaps i am.
 +
[8:39pm] <WormRunner> that would be an interesting persona
 +
[8:39pm] <tymp> {gate} : and a good way to get folks into that - which will follow organically i spose
 +
[8:39pm] <tymp> {gate} : once it's there
 +
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> i have no intention of rail-roading anything.
 +
[8:40pm] <{gate}> I think we are a bit off topic here
 +
[8:40pm] <WormRunner> could be
 +
[8:40pm] <tymp> skippy : no, just i expect vagrantc has thought about this more than the rest of us
 +
[8:40pm] <skippy> are there any actions to be taken, here?
 +
[8:40pm] <stillflame> skippy: right, we need to decide what balance of work and options we want. vagrantc: are you only capable of handling one installer cd? if so, we need to decide what cd would best serve all freegeeks right now.
 +
[8:41pm] <tymp> stillflame : i intend to get up to snuff on it in oct
 +
[8:41pm] <stillflame> okay then, all of us: how many cds can we maintain?
 +
[8:41pm] <tymp> .. i really think this will all make sense if we have some discussion about the intended purpose(s)
 +
[8:42pm] <vagrantc> it is not impossible to make two CD images, but the most crude test cycle of each CD build takes 4-8 hours. i don't want to double that.
 +
[8:42pm] <tymp> ah!
 +
[8:42pm] <stillflame> tymp: yeah, i agree. i think we should ignore making more cds until we have things we're sure we want to add to the cds
 +
[8:42pm] <vagrantc> so someone else can do it, and i will happily help them get up to speed with simple-cdd to do it.
 +
[8:42pm] <{gate}> columbus plans on testing these things too. curned out two on sunday and tested both.
 +
[8:42pm] <tymp> and it's quicker to do on real hardware
 +
[8:43pm] <tymp> than emulated
 +
[8:43pm] <vagrantc> tymp: but makes a lot of CD coasters.
 +
[8:43pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: can you commit to making some sort of documentation on how to do that build cycle?
 +
[8:43pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: sure!
 +
[8:43pm] <tymp> vagrantc : use rewritables
 +
[8:43pm] <skippy> rewritable CDs should prevent coasters.
 +
[8:43pm] <tymp> jinx!
 +
[8:43pm] <skippy> darnit!
 +
[8:43pm] <tymp> heh
 +
[8:44pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i don't have access to any CD burners
 
[8:44pm] <skippy> commit: take to the distro list the question of objectives for CD images.
 
[8:44pm] <skippy> commit: take to the distro list the question of objectives for CD images.
−
 
+
[8:44pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: freegeek.pdx would happily donate one
 +
[8:44pm] <tymp> vagrantc : nor a spare box, i assumed - was thinking, here's how others can help
 +
[8:44pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: i will soon be too mobile to lug around extra hardware.
 +
[8:44pm] <stillflame> mmm
 +
[8:45pm] <tymp> stillflame : grant vagrantc a new laptop w/ burner :)
 +
[8:45pm] <WormRunner> yeah!
 +
[8:45pm] <vagrantc> so it sounds like a lot of this discussion might be better had on the list?
 +
[8:45pm] <stillflame> that's possible
 +
[8:45pm] <skippy> who else has commitments for this, before we move on?
 +
[8:45pm] * vagrantc committed to something ... ?
 +
[8:46pm] <tymp> we have fifteen minutes, and we haven't checked in on past commitments
 +
[8:46pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: docs on freekbox3 build cycle
 
[8:46pm] <vagrantc> commit: document freekbox3 installer CD build cycle
 
[8:46pm] <vagrantc> commit: document freekbox3 installer CD build cycle
−
 
+
[8:46pm] <skippy> item 2e) SVN
 +
[8:46pm] <skippy> status report from PDX?
 +
[8:46pm] <tymp> i am concerned we aren't going to go over past commitments
 +
[8:47pm] <tymp> can we do that quickly?
 +
[8:47pm] <vagrantc> tymp: there is considerable overlap with existing topics
 +
[8:47pm] <stillflame> svn server is currently being put into the dmz, after which it will be accessable globally. still some configuration issues to work out with buildbot and such.
 +
[8:47pm] <tymp> vagrantc : but to have it in one place
 +
[8:47pm] <tymp> stillflame : eta?
 +
[8:47pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i think there will be time.
 +
[8:47pm] <{gate}> so when can we start getting accounts
 +
[8:48pm] <stillflame> i'll work on it all tomorrow night, and i think that will be enough.
 +
[8:48pm] <tymp> well, since we started... meho?
 +
[8:48pm] <tymp> oh.. that's real old
 +
[8:48pm] <tymp> oh, i'm looking at the wrong agenda
 +
[8:48pm] <vagrantc> ?
 +
[8:49pm] <tymp> gate?
 +
[8:49pm] <stillflame> tymp: hold on while i finish with svn
 +
[8:49pm] <tymp> ah, sorry
 +
[8:49pm] <stillflame> it will be set up for both webdav and svn+ssh, and i'll need to get login info for everyone
 +
[8:49pm] <stillflame> trac is installed, and will need to be configured for each project hosted
 +
[8:50pm] <{gate}> so that means u want our pub keys
 +
[8:50pm] <stillflame> {gate}: right
 +
[8:50pm] * tymp apologizes for being on another planed for a moment
 +
[8:50pm] <stillflame> if people send things to me now, i can add them in once things are up and tell everyone about it.
 +
[8:51pm] <stillflame> so carryover commitment for me on svn
 
[8:51pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: finish svn, add user access (either ssh or webdav)
 
[8:51pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: finish svn, add user access (either ssh or webdav)
−
 
+
[8:51pm] <stillflame> oh, and i need to remember to set up ssl certs
 +
[8:51pm] <skippy> okay. previous commitments.
 +
[8:52pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: including anonymous access?
 +
[8:52pm] * tymp meant "planet"
 +
[8:52pm] <skippy> meho: popcon. still pending. gate: setup fb3-gnome packages -- in process. stillflame: request for coordinator; unnecessary now.
 +
[8:52pm] <skippy> errr, not meho; me. sorry.
 +
[8:53pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: anon is working, yeah
 +
[8:53pm] <{gate}> yup, thats the status of the gnome package.
 +
[8:53pm] <skippy> vagrantc: post about new "official" fb3 packages; post about restructuring. document reprepro.
 +
[8:53pm] <stillflame> skippy: and i did it over email, i think.
 +
[8:53pm] <vagrantc> flaked on all accounts.
 +
[8:53pm] <vagrantc> we kind of discussed the main issues here for the packaging/restructuring.
 +
[8:53pm] <stillflame> we all read the zen paper, though
 +
[8:53pm] * stillflame applauds us.
 +
[8:54pm] <skippy> tymp: media player on wiki?
 +
[8:54pm] <tymp> no.  flaked.  but also, i don't know if that's the right place for it
 +
[8:54pm] <tymp> i can make a stub for documenting options, but it really seems like a discussion topic
 +
[8:54pm] <WormRunner> Is that a discussion of the relative merits?
 +
[8:54pm] <tymp> yes
 +
[8:55pm] <WormRunner> wiki can be a good place then
 +
[8:55pm] <vagrantc> maybe distro list?
 +
[8:55pm] <tymp> vagrantc : yeah
 +
[8:55pm] * vagrantc hates discussions on wikis
 +
[8:55pm] <tymp> yes, it's not really suitable
 +
[8:55pm] <skippy> the list better ensures that I at least will answer.
 +
[8:55pm] <WormRunner> vagrantc: ok, then on the list
 +
[8:56pm] <tymp> but the wiki can be good for distilling the discussion - if that's desirable
 +
[8:56pm] <WormRunner> yes. I can commit to that part
 +
[8:56pm] <vagrantc> sounds good.
 +
[8:56pm] <tymp> okay, given to WormRunner
 +
[8:56pm] <skippy> any final business?
 +
[8:56pm] <tymp> next meeting
 +
[8:57pm] <skippy> the 27th
 +
[8:57pm] <tymp> agenda deadline? facilitator?
 +
[8:58pm] <tymp> i'll facilitate, and have a rough agenda up by next tues, if no one else does it
 +
[8:58pm] <tymp> k?
 +
[8:58pm] <skippy> deadline should be the friday before the meeting, methinks, at the latest.
 +
[8:58pm] <tymp> that sound good, at the latest
 +
[8:58pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i think commitments maybe should come before on-going issues, in the future (it was my bad organization that started the trend)
 +
[8:59pm] <tymp> yes, makes sense.  np
 +
[8:59pm] <vagrantc> and if we've got tons of extra time, we can always agree to add new items :)
 +
[9:00pm] <skippy> okay... last chance to say anything on the record...
 +
[9:00pm] <tymp> is there an after-party? ;p
 +
[9:00pm] <skippy> </meeting>
 +
[9:00pm] <{gate}> crap
 +
[9:00pm] <tymp> thanks you all
 +
[9:01pm] <{gate}> I mean its bed time
 +
[9:01pm] <{gate}> later
 +
[9:01pm] <tymp> {gate} : cheers
 +
[9:01pm] <skippy> g'night {gate}
 +
[9:01pm] <vagrantc> tymp: what was the thing you wanted to discuss if we had extra time?
 +
[9:01pm] <skippy> communication
 +
[9:01pm] <tymp> "communication"
 +
[9:01pm] <vagrantc> that's where things usually break down, yes.
 +
[9:02pm] <tymp> actually, the thing in my mind was minor/simple: it can be appropriate to have off-list discussion - if it is specific ... workgroup discussion.  eg, i plan to mail you and WormRunner on the .. whatever that was we agreed to work on and document thing
 +
[9:03pm] <vagrantc> package repository building?
 +
[9:03pm] <tymp> though, your policy of encouraging on-list discussion is good - and i think clearly things fall off the list by accident and need to be nudged back on sometimes
 +
[9:03pm] <tymp> yes, that should be it
 +
[9:04pm] <tymp> but wonder if there's a way to talk about it as a broader topic too "how to improve communications (on an ongoing basis)"
 +
[9:04pm] <vagrantc> it's important to not over-whelm the list with lots of information, but at the same time, i think it's even more important to keep everything documented and accessible.
 +
[9:05pm] <tymp> maybe there could be some known system of subject line codes..
 +
[9:05pm] <tymp> to make it easy to filter
 +
[9:05pm] <tymp> like "workgroup: x"
 +
[9:05pm] <vagrantc> i think people should just use meaningful subjects.
 +
[9:06pm] <vagrantc> we all could probably improve that.
 +
[9:06pm] <tymp> shouldcouldwould :)
 +
[9:06pm] <vagrantc> and maybe including the working group in the title is part of that ...
 +
[9:06pm] <WormRunner> being willing to change subjects too -- A (was C)
 +
[9:06pm] * vagrantc nods
 +
[9:07pm] <tymp> and you could say "hi, welcome to blabla, you may want to ignore emails with "signifier" in the subject.."
 +
[9:07pm] <tymp> "..while you get acquainted"
 +
[9:07pm] <tymp> WormRunner : truely
 +
[9:08pm] <vagrantc> well, i need to go harvest, divvy up, and distribute food tomorrow :)
 +
[9:08pm] <skippy> good night.
 +
[9:08pm] <tymp> cool.  enjoy.
 +
[9:08pm] Quits: vagrantc (n=vagrant@pcp05158478pcs.montbl01.nm.comcast.net) ("leaving")
 +
[9:08pm] <tymp> it *feels* late here.  charms of insomnia.
 +
[9:08pm] <WormRunner> yeah, I need to head off as well.
 +
[9:09pm] <tymp> thanks much for coming WormRunner
 +
[9:09pm] <tymp> !
 +
[9:09pm] <WormRunner> my pleasure
 +
[9:09pm] Parts: WormRunner (n=worm_@pool-71-111-140-187.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net) ("Now where was I?") [8 users]
 +
[9:09pm] Quits: skippy (n=skippy@two.skippy.net) ("[BX] Wouldn't it be great if the dog could walk itself?")
 +
[9:09pm] <tymp> stillflame : were you posting a log?  i'll put a summary up
 +
[9:10pm] <tymp> ... pretty easy since we followed the agenda so closely
 +
[9:10pm] <stillflame> i will
 
[9:10pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: post log
 
[9:10pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: post log
−
 
+
[9:10pm] <stillflame> =:)
 +
[9:11pm] <tymp> commit : post summary :)
 
[9:12pm] * meho commits to attend next meeting
 
[9:12pm] * meho commits to attend next meeting
−
 
+
[9:14pm] Quits: romdos (n=romsos@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) ("I left some time ago but left my computer on")
−
=== Full Log ===
 
−
<pre>
 
−
@1126664213 <skippy> okay -- it's about that time.
 
−
@1126664222 <tymp> ..something for future agenda items too?  agenda:
 
−
@1126664229 [stillflame] ACTION nods.
 
−
@1126664247 <skippy> check in.  Who's present.
 
−
@1126664270 <skippy> skippy, freegeek columbus.
 
−
@1126664275 <tymp> hi, rob here in olympia..
 
−
@1126664298 <vagrantc> i'm here, but i haven't had a lot of time to work on distro ... i'm part of freegeek at large :)
 
−
@1126664302 <gate> greg, columbus
 
−
@1126664306 <stillflame> i'm coming out of freegeek portland oregon
 
−
@1126664310 <romdos> dave, pdx
 
−
@1126664327 [stillflame] ACTION pokes WormRunner
 
−
@1126664336 <skippy> has everyone reviewed the agenda?  Any last minute changes/ additions ?
 
−
@1126664338 <WormRunner> michael, portland fg
 
−
@1126664363 [vagrantc] ACTION notices that the agenda is in the topic for this channel
 
−
@1126664402 <tymp> skippy : i reviewed it, would say go with it ..
 
−
@1126664412 [stillflame] ACTION is good
 
−
@1126664418 <skippy> first item: unfinished biz.
 
−
@1126664423 <skippy> 1a) FB3 packaging.
 
−
@1126664461 <skippy> who wants to speak about that?
 
−
@1126664465 <tymp> ..not sure whether the listed items are that relevant at this moment..
 
−
@1126664482 <tymp> maybe more important is the recent distro conversation between vagrantc and gate
 
−
@1126664496 <tymp> is that the same topic?
 
−
@1126664505 <vagrantc> i can talk about packaging, if we want to talk about it now.
 
−
@1126664511 <tymp> oi
 
−
@1126664515 <gate> sounds fun
 
−
@1126664526 <skippy> go ahead, vagrantc
 
−
@1126664528 <vagrantc> tymp: i would say it's a third topic on that theme, but it's also a new item
 
−
@1126664537 [tymp] ACTION nods
 
−
@1126664566 <vagrantc> so, i want to get new "official" freekbox3 packages, since there have been a lot of changes in cvs not present in the released packages (0.1.2)
 
−
@1126664582 <vagrantc> i need some people to test new packages, and ideally folks from freegeek portland.
 
−
@1126664589 <vagrantc> that's the first item.
 
−
@1126664601 <gate> sounds like a good idea, release before we break it
 
−
@1126664624 <tymp> is there any procedure established for getting the packages updated?
 
−
@1126664627 <vagrantc> it would ease the CD building considerably ... any takers?
 
−
@1126664635 <tymp> i mean, for getting agreement to take action on that?
 
−
@1126664654 <tymp> vagrantc : you're asking for someone to *do* it?
 
−
@1126664667 <stillflame> vagrantc: i can offer to have available users try out installer disks.
 
−
@1126664680 <stillflame> provided there's an iso i can burn from
 
−
@1126664682 <vagrantc> tymp: i can build the packages, or help someone build the packages, but i need someone to test the packages.
 
−
@1126664702 <WormRunner> I can do an install or two and see how it goes
 
−
@1126664709 <skippy> is there a defined testing criteria / process?
 
−
@1126664718 <vagrantc> not that i'm aware of.
 
−
@1126664745 <skippy> is such a thing necessary?
 
−
@1126664752 <tymp> perhaps its second nature to those in pdx?
 
−
@1126664753 <skippy> What constitutes "testing" ?
 
−
@1126664766 <tymp> yes, i'm not clear either
 
−
@1126664783 <vagrantc> probably go through the QC process ?
 
−
@1126664797 <WormRunner> yeah. for start
 
−
@1126664800 <stillflame> okay
 
−
@1126664812 <vagrantc> maybe have someone who's been a teacher to run through a"class" with it?
 
−
@1126664824 <stillflame> vagrantc: adoption teacher?
 
−
@1126664838 <vagrantc> stillflame: yeah, and build teachers too, probably.
 
−
@1126664865 <skippy> sorry for being obtuse, but does this mean that Oly and CMH are unable to help test?
 
−
@1126664871 <stillflame> WormRunner: can you try to pull an adoption teacher inthat?
 
−
@1126664896 <WormRunner> sure. and I have been doing some of that myself
 
−
@1126664908 <vagrantc> anyone who wants to test can give input, but since portland relies on it crucially, i think it's crucial to have testers there.
 
−
@1126664921 <tymp> tangent : i'm going to set about polling for feedback/approval of the gui changes i made... a procedure or suggestions how best to do this would help
 
−
@1126664926 <stillflame> okay, COMMIT: to get tested a freekbox3 package release
 
−
@1126664941 <skippy> but if there's no dcoumented test process, how can we bestparticipate?
 
−
@1126664942 <stillflame> tymp: would the distro RT work?
 
−
@1126664971 <stillflame> skippy: ah, right.  i can offer up slightly outdated QC instructions.
 
−
@1126664986 <skippy> stillflame: that would help.  please do.
 
−
@1126664988 <vagrantc> skippy: eyeball it up, see if anything is obviously broken ... walk through the adoption class outline, do build QC process ...
 
−
@1126665008 <vagrantc> that's a start.
 
−
@1126665010 <stillflame> COMMIT: post instructions to pdx QC process.
 
−
@1126665015 <tymp> stillflame : yes.  i'm also planning to spam adoption-teachers, build, and something
 
−
@1126665040 <skippy> next item:  1b) new images
 
−
@1126665065 <vagrantc> skippy: could you clarify?
 
−
@1126665094 <skippy> vagrantc: "building new freekbox3 packages".
 
−
@1126665113 <vagrantc> oh, i thought that was what we just covered ?
 
−
@1126665131 <skippy> okay.  Item 1c) mini-dinstall  / reprepro / hand-rolled
 
−
@1126665148 <vagrantc> again, i put it on the agenda, so i'll summarize
 
−
@1126665178 <vagrantc> basically, it would be helpful to have a more standard package repository format
 
−
@1126665202 <vagrantc> so that tools such as debpartial-mirror and reprepro canmore easily mirror our freekbox3 package archive
 
−
@1126665226 <stillflame> what's the cost of doing so?
 
−
@1126665231 <vagrantc> our current archive is at http://web.freegeek.org/freekbox3
 
−
@1126665264 <vagrantc> stillflame: just need to agree on a process for buildingthe archive, and learn different commands.
 
−
@1126665323 <vagrantc> mini-dinstall would be most useful for developers makingexperimental releases and cvs builds, reprepro would be best for standard archive format for our released packages, and our hand-rolled one could be as good asreprepro, but more flexible ... but it would require writing it.
 
−
@1126665326 <stillflame> so we just need to choose between those three mentioned?
 
−
@1126665338 [stillflame] ACTION withdraws his last comment
 
−
@1126665344 <gate> by hand is to much work
 
−
@1126665351 <tymp> vagrantc : what do you think is best?
 
−
@1126665376 <vagrantc> gate: "by-hand" means writing a very simple 5-15 line script to do it, and i already have most of it written for the lessdisks project
 
−
@1126665414 <gate> ok so thats not as bad then, I though u ment copy files and then create packages.gz
 
−
@1126665431 <vagrantc> tymp: reprepro might be the easiest to start with, but it likes to delete old packages, whereas i would like to keep them around.
 
−
@1126665453 <tymp> vagrantc : so you are not sure?  seems like no one else is either
 
−
@1126665475 <gate> reprepro sounds bad to me
 
−
@1126665481 <vagrantc> mini-dinstall is the easiest, but the archive format isn't really any better.
 
−
@1126665483 [WormRunner] ACTION expresses his ignorance of these matters
 
−
@1126665493 <vagrantc> a backported version of reprepro might also satisfy our needs.
 
−
@1126665503 <vagrantc> but then we've got to deal with a backport ...
 
−
@1126665521 <WormRunner> is reprepo modifiable easily?
 
−
@1126665535 <skippy> is one demonstrably better than the others, even if it still has shortcomings?
 
−
@1126665539 <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's written in C ... so i'd say no.
 
−
@1126665544 <gate> if we have to deal with packports whats wrong with the hand meathod
 
−
@1126665545 <WormRunner> ok
 
−
@1126665582 <vagrantc> skippy: i guess i'm a little inclined towards hand-rolled scripts ...
 
−
@1126665599 <tymp> if we said hand-rolled, what would be a resonable deadline to have that?
 
−
@1126665617 <gate> does apt-move or any other tools help with it
 
−
@1126665636 <tymp> ie, how urgent vs time required and available
 
−
@1126665641 <vagrantc> the exact tool isn't even that important, in my opinion ... i guess it's more an issue of process- how do we decide what goes into the package repository, who does it, etc.
 
−
@1126665665 <stillflame> what's the importance of serving up old package versions?
 
−
@1126665673 <vagrantc> tymp: i could get a functional archive working in a matter of days with the hand-rolled method.
 
−
@1126665694 <vagrantc> stillflame: historical relevence, easy to revert if we broke something badly
 
−
@1126665707 <gate> all the stable releases should stay and maybe an auto build after a cvs commit
 
−
@1126665714 <skippy> can we rsync or manually copy old packaes in some way?
 
−
@1126665737 <vagrantc> we could use a method that uses both mini-dinstall and some other method ...
 
−
@1126665765 [tymp] ACTION really has no investment yet in this issue
 
−
@1126665810 <skippy> so, can we take action, or do we need to discuss on the list some more?
 
−
@1126665823 <vagrantc> would anyone want to work with me on these issues, getting it done, getting it documented, and just giving us the ok to just do what we want?
 
−
@1126665828 <vagrantc> within reason :)
 
−
@1126665858 <WormRunner> I would say if vagrantc has an idea of how to get it done and wants to, we could go with his hand-rolled idea
 
−
@1126665859 <tymp> i *want* to, but can't commit this month
 
−
@1126665863 <gate> I would but It will have to hold off till Oct
 
−
@1126665876 <tymp> yay, October!
 
−
@1126665881 <tymp> (me too)
 
−
@1126665892 <vagrantc> ideally, i'd like to have it done by next meeting ...
 
−
@1126665893 <tymp> i second WormRunner
 
−
@1126665907 <tymp> vagrantc : say "commit"? :))
 
−
@1126665922 <vagrantc> i haven't found a co-conspirator yet
 
−
@1126665930 <skippy> commit: allow vagrantc to hand-roll packages until a better method is devised.
 
−
@1126665947 <tymp> what investment will the co-conspiritor need to make?
 
−
@1126666009 <vagrantc> maybe they get to do the documentation- how to put packages into the repository, mainly.
 
−
@1126666028 <vagrantc> so that the documentation works for someone inexperienced with these matters already
 
−
@1126666053 <tymp> i can commit 4 hours before next meeting to that .. ?
 
−
@1126666070 <tymp> .. i think i am inexperienced enough :)
 
−
@1126666076 <vagrantc> i can just do it, and hope that my documentation is goodenough
 
−
@1126666089 <vagrantc> and if anyone wants to help, they would be welcome to
 
−
@1126666111 <tymp> commit : spend 4 hours over next two weeks helping document putting packages in repository
 
−
@1126666112 <WormRunner> I would be happy to help document, as long as I can poke you enough where I fail to understand
 
−
@1126666136 <vagrantc> sounds great!
 
−
@1126666147 <skippy> okay; sounds like consensus to me.  Vagrant will prepare packages, and WormRunner and tymp will assist documentation.
 
−
@1126666176 <tymp> is communication on the agenda?
 
−
@1126666179 <skippy> next section: on-going business.
 
−
@1126666183 <tymp> is communication on the agenda?
 
−
@1126666188 <skippy> no, tymp, it's not.
 
−
@1126666195 <tymp> i'd like to parking-lot that
 
−
@1126666204 <skippy> what does that mean?
 
−
@1126666210 <tymp> (ie, if we get through the rest of the agenda...)
 
−
@1126666222 <WormRunner> =table
 
−
@1126666226 <skippy> ok.  if we get through.
 
−
@1126666226 <WormRunner> I presume
 
−
@1126666232 <tymp> ha, that's simpler
 
−
@1126666237 <skippy> item 2a) user-oriented-design.
 
−
@1126666246 <skippy> has everyone read the Zini paper?
 
−
@1126666255 <gate> yup
 
−
@1126666256 <tymp> yes.
 
−
@1126666264 <skippy> any questions?
 
−
@1126666265 <vagrantc> re-read it earlier today :)
 
−
@1126666274 <tymp> skippy : can you estimate time we should spend on this item?
 
−
@1126666298 <skippy> tymp: it's an on-going agenda item, so I'm comfortable giving this 5 - 10 minutes tops.
 
−
@1126666310 <skippy> does anyone have any questions re: zini ?
 
−
@1126666337 <tymp> well... re this project of doing useroriented design..
 
−
@1126666357 <stillflame> does moving toward more user-centric design imply thatwe would move to distro to debian-np?
 
−
@1126666361 <tymp> i'd like to see some timeline
 
−
@1126666372 <stillflame> move *the* distro
 
−
@1126666388 <tymp> that seems like something that's worth considering
 
−
@1126666392 <vagrantc> stillflame: not at all.
 
−
@1126666403 <vagrantc> stillflame: it is a totally separate issue.
 
−
@1126666403 <skippy> stillflame: I think debian-np is more "business user" oriented.
 
−
@1126666405 <tymp> or, perhaps "move" is too strong
 
−
@1126666410 <stillflame> okay, thanks.
 
−
@1126666422 <skippy> tymp: timeline for this in what way?
 
−
@1126666432 <tymp> goals, dates
 
−
@1126666434 <vagrantc> user-oriented-design is just techniques to inform our design decisions
 
−
@1126666438 <tymp> 1 month, 1 year
 
−
@1126666444 <WormRunner> a way of thinking
 
−
@1126666445 <tymp> i think it's a long-term project
 
−
@1126666469 <vagrantc> it is a life-long project, but i see some specific goals:
 
−
@1126666471 <WormRunner> I think this is a way of thinking we just need to never forget
 
−
@1126666482 <vagrantc> create a persona for each of the freegeek categories
 
−
@1126666497 <vagrantc> trim the adoption program personae down to 1 or 2 personae
 
−
@1126666508 <WormRunner> 3
 
−
@1126666535 <tymp> does anyone else think : there are kinda two projects here 1) bottom-up, working with what we have and making it cleaner, 2) top-down, thinking about what it should be long-term
 
−
@1126666541 <stillflame> so this is something that the adoption teachers shouldcontribute heavily to
 
−
@1126666544 <vagrantc> exactly how many is up for debate, but the fewer the better, or we'll have a very muddy design.
 
−
@1126666551 <WormRunner> ok
 
−
@1126666563 <vagrantc> stillflame: absolutely!
 
−
@1126666564 <WormRunner> stillflame:  yes, I think so
 
−
@1126666588 <WormRunner> and support
 
−
@1126666597 <vagrantc> i think the most appropriate areas of expertise are adoption teachers and tech support.
 
−
@1126666597 <tymp> stillflame : yea, and feedback systems that we hope to buildin would contribute
 
−
@1126666626 <tymp> i think there's a meta-issue with design that requires a different approach
 
−
@1126666632 <stillflame> okay, i think a physical meeting is needed to really start these personae off, so WormRunner, romdos, meho and/or i need to get a meeting organized with teachers here to define them.
 
−
@1126666632 <tymp> it's not very technical at all
 
−
@1126666695 <WormRunner> commit: I will email the adoptionteachers list
 
−
@1126666697 <skippy> I've loosely fleshed out what I perceive to be an FGCMH user.
 
−
@1126666703 <vagrantc> hopefully, the various freegeeks will be able to make use of the same personae, but there may be differences to consider.
 
−
@1126666711 <stillflame> WormRunner: and set up a meeting to define personae
 
−
@1126666716 <tymp> the ideal will be one persona
 
−
@1126666724 <tymp> * to have one persona
 
−
@1126666739 <vagrantc> but the ideal is impossible, by the very diversity of freegeek.
 
−
@1126666747 <gate> I don't see the persona as that specific that we could not all get buy with one
 
−
@1126666766 <stillflame> skippy: good.  would it be okay for the meeting to tryto absorb that persona into another?
 
−
@1126666772 <WormRunner> I see several distinct types of users
 
−
@1126666782 <vagrantc> it should largely be a "sterotypical" user- but defined enough to get a feel for their personality
 
−
@1126666790 <skippy> gate: Maybe not at the moment, but I can envision, say, anHispanic FreeGeek initiative, that might have different goals from FGCMH
 
−
@1126666832 <skippy> stillflame: you folks are welcome to build upon my start; but I'd like to keep a separate FGCMH persona, so that we don't mis-direct our efforts once we start deploying systems.
 
−
@1126666839 <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's likely that freegeek just has a hard design.
 
−
@1126666841 <gate> well yes but as it currently stands I see maybe 2 at most
 
−
@1126666875 <tymp> i hope we can keep an open mind to agreeing on one
 
−
@1126666890 <vagrantc> skippy: well, once you start deploying systems, you may need to create a persona from scratch and forget about the old one ...
 
−
@1126666932 <skippy> vagrantc: perhaps.  But that would happen whether FG/PDX absorbs our persona or not.
 
−
@1126666946 <skippy> gate: did you review my persona sketch ?
 
−
@1126666960 <gate> ya
 
−
@1126666961 <vagrantc> skippy: definitely.  and if you're lucky, you'll realisethat the other freegeek persona fit you just fine :)
 
−
@1126666965 <gate> I read it a few days back
 
−
@1126667020 <skippy> vagrantc: please excuse my skepticism.  You may be completely correct; but you folks have a lot of inertia behind a lot of what you've done, and we're in a position to enjoy a fresh start with no preconceived notions.I'd like to use that as much as possible.
 
−
@1126667021 <gate> seems a lot like the rest, just a different background but computer uses were about the same between them
 
−
@1126667062 <skippy> anyway, we're straying from the task at hand.
 
−
@1126667069 <tymp> skippy : i think your skepticism is sensible.  but the hope would be..
 
−
@1126667084 <vagrantc> skippy: of course.  only time will give a real idea if any of the personae are good.
 
−
@1126667130 <tymp> that's more than 10 minutes
 
−
@1126667133 <skippy> it seems to me that the general consensus for the currently defined personae are that they are task-oriented _users_, and not tweakers or customizers.
 
−
@1126667145 <tymp> yes
 
−
@1126667151 <gate> as stated before get the teachers/tech support in here to tell us what really needs done
 
−
@1126667172 <vagrantc> i think it is important to note that all of the existingadoption personae were created by a single person.
 
−
@1126667181 <skippy> commit: get feedback from build teachers.  (I think someone said that already)
 
−
@1126667188 <WormRunner> yes
 
−
@1126667197 <gate> just restating so we can move on
 
−
@1126667204 <vagrantc> skippy: though that would largely be for a build persona, not the adoption persona
 
−
@1126667205 <WormRunner> and adoption teachers and tech support
 
−
@1126667240 <WormRunner> so now that we have committed to a process for that, what is next
 
−
@1126667252 <skippy> next item: 2b) prognosis
 
−
@1126667279 <skippy> which I take to include long-term outlook, objectives, andtimeline
 
−
@1126667286 <tymp> we're dead in 6 months
 
−
@1126667298 <WormRunner> ?
 
−
@1126667304 <skippy> are you being silly, tymp ?
 
−
@1126667306 <tymp> just kidding
 
−
@1126667308 <tymp> sorry
 
−
@1126667309 <skippy> okay.
 
−
@1126667332 <gate> I was going to say, I just say the doc and she did not tell me this
 
−
@1126667337 <WormRunner> tech support people have no sense of humor.  don't confuse us
 
−
@1126667345 <tymp> lol
 
−
@1126667352 <skippy> I think the addition / collaboration of new FGs will help many aspects of the project(s) overall, but it will also slow things down a fai rbit.
 
−
@1126667390 <skippy> we don't have any real milestones for the distro project.
 
−
@1126667423 <skippy> does anyone have any comments before moving on?
 
−
@1126667425 <tymp> yeah, seems like there is a fundamental shift?
 
−
@1126667425 <vagrantc> well, the freekbox3 is an already mostly finished milestone- many systems are already out there being used!
 
−
@1126667457 <tymp> i think skippy means, the project as non-pdx-ers know it
 
−
@1126667466 <WormRunner> and other than some minor stuff, they are working pretty well
 
−
@1126667470 <skippy> I think it's fair to say that the FB3 is an FB/PDX-specific success; and not directly transferrable to start-ups
 
−
@1126667478 <vagrantc> the gnome fork definitely adds a lot of complication, but is leading to a better infrastructure.
 
−
@1126667490 <tymp> but, i do want to the non-locals to not lose sight of all the work pdx has done
 
−
@1126667519 <skippy> PDX has a lot of investment, and it feels to me that they take a lot for granted.
 
−
@1126667546 <skippy> that's neither good nor bad, by the way -- it's just a statement of fact.
 
−
@1126667552 <vagrantc> skippy: any specific examples?
 
−
@1126667554 <tymp> it's to be expected, i think
 
−
@1126667555 <skippy> errr.. perception.
 
−
@1126667568 <tymp> 05(skippy05): i agree, on the whole
 
−
@1126667587 <tymp> well, it is beginning to move -
 
−
@1126667593 <skippy> vagrantc: this discussion shows several examples, vagrantc, as folks talk about build and adoption and teaching.
 
−
@1126667597 <tymp> i think there has not been real motivation to open it up
 
−
@1126667616 <skippy> We have no such hierarchy / definition, so we don't have the same kinds of approach to issues.
 
−
@1126667620 <vagrantc> skippy: definitely.
 
−
@1126667640 <tymp> vagrantc : an example is the installation process - which until recently was assumed to be based on cloning
 
−
@1126667672 <tymp> ("assumed" - in practice)
 
−
@1126667704 <WormRunner> and there has been motion for a long time toward a more standard install
 
−
@1126667714 <vagrantc> basically, freegeek portland had a lot of stuff that basically worked, but is not necessarily easy to replicate or maintain over the long-term, and coordinating with other groups is forcing the project into a good direction.
 
−
@1126667719 <skippy> decision making seems to be "the PDX way, or the highway",to be blunt.
 
−
@1126667728 <WormRunner> good grief
 
−
@1126667747 <tymp> skippy : i think that is a mis-perception.  but i have had that perception too.
 
−
@1126667784 <vagrantc> well, the meeting time is portland-centric ...
 
−
@1126667787 <tymp> i think the central problem is the ease of misunderstanding,rather than any specific inattention or disregard, etc
 
−
@1126667804 <skippy> tymp: that may be the bulk of it.
 
−
@1126667814 <skippy> anyway, do we have any more comments re: prognosis?
 
−
@1126667829 <vagrantc> basically, any group is going to be resistant to changing something that is basically working for them.
 
−
@1126667835 <tymp> i think it's important to respect the special "ownership" ofportland over freegeek - if that word is not too ugly
 
−
@1126667869 <tymp> vagrantc : it's just social inertia
 
−
@1126667878 <WormRunner> It seems to me that there is a great deal of movement by portland, and that these meetings are evidence of that
 
−
@1126667892 <vagrantc> tymp: it's more than merely social- it is technical inertia, also.
 
−
@1126667919 <vagrantc> WormRunner: it feels to me that portland is less actively involved, at the moment, actually.
 
−
@1126667921 <tymp> vagrantc : by 'just', i mean, just inertia - but i take it back
 
−
@1126667942 <skippy> WormRunner: I hope you're not offended by my comment. I'm not trying to cause trouble, or whine. I'm trying to be honest, because this is something about which I'm passionate (as I assume are all of you).
 
−
@1126667971 <skippy> are there any action items for this prognosis issue?
 
−
@1126667974 <vagrantc> skippy: again, i'd be curious about more of the specifics ?
 
−
@1126667991 <skippy> vagrantc: I suggest we put this on hold for the mailing list.
 
−
@1126667994 <WormRunner> skippy:  I am troubled by what I see as an adversarialapproach
 
−
@1126667998 <vagrantc> skippy: sounds perfect.
 
−
@1126668027 <WormRunner> skippy: yes
 
−
@1126668032 <skippy> WormRunner: feel free to expand your concerns on the mailing list.  I don't think I'm being adversarial.
 
−
@1126668038 <skippy> item 2c) popcon server.
 
−
@1126668050 <skippy> This was my item.  I've taken no action on it.
 
−
@1126668062 <skippy> Commit: install and test a popcon server before next meeting.
 
−
@1126668090 <tymp> sweet.  that was quick!
 
−
@1126668091 <skippy> item 2d) multi-profile CD.
 
−
@1126668118 <vagrantc> haven't done much on this- last CD build was 699MB, including a lot of the freekbox3-gnome trimming.
 
−
@1126668129 <tymp> what's the date on that?
 
−
@1126668138 <skippy> vagrantc: ought there be a distinction between a "user" multi-profile CD, and a "FreeGeek on a disc" multi-profile CD?
 
−
@1126668142 <vagrantc> september 3rd.
 
−
@1126668155 <gate> I made some non release CDs this week which seemed to work allright but I have not gotten back to them since sunday
 
−
@1126668170 <vagrantc> skippy: maybe.  ideally we can fit it all on one CD.
 
−
@1126668171 <tymp> the 8/23 one has some problems - but i didn't feel the need so much to comment, as i'm thinking it's still ... alpha stage?
 
−
@1126668192 <tymp> vagrantc : did you get my comment about the broken cd link on the wiki?
 
−
@1126668227 <vagrantc> skippy: there is so much overlap, i don't see the advantage of the extra overhead required for two CDs.
 
−
@1126668238 <vagrantc> tymp: nope.
 
−
@1126668242 <tymp> in general : what is the intended product of work on multi-installer cd?
 
−
@1126668250 <skippy> vagrantc: I disagree with the need to fit it all on one CD.  Many users are not likely to be interested in replicating an FG for themselves.  It seems a better investment of our time to provide users with a very focused CD; and give interested parties the extra tools to do what they need to make an FG.
 
−
@1126668257 <gate> ya, the only reason to go two CD is if the packages grow toomuch
 
−
@1126668308 <tymp> skippy : that is rather what i'd been thinking
 
−
@1126668312 <WormRunner> I have thought it would be good to have a basic CD buta package to install an expanded set of relevant packages
 
−
@1126668312 <vagrantc> skippy: i guess we disagree on what's a better investment of time.
 
−
@1126668315 <stillflame> we currently need to install a few different set of packages: laptops, baseservers and freekboxes.
 
−
@1126668325 <gate> The first time a real package comes up for dropping or adding and size become a consern make two CDs, its pretty easy with simple-ccd
 
−
@1126668326 <stillflame> we = fg.pdx
 
−
@1126668346 <vagrantc> gate: we're already riding on the edge of a 700MB image,though.
 
−
@1126668353 <gate> I know
 
−
@1126668377 <tymp> vagrantc : i still don't see clearly why it's desirable to have a single cd image with all the profiles
 
−
@1126668398 <vagrantc> of course, according to user-oriented design, we should have a separate CD for every persona :)
 
−
@1126668405 <tymp> lol
 
−
@1126668420 <gate> less coasters laying around
 
−
@1126668429 <tymp> but there should be one persona, so, for each of one ;)
 
−
@1126668446 <tymp> gate : laying around *where*
 
−
@1126668454 <gate> my coffee table
 
−
@1126668454 <vagrantc> tymp: well, i don't want to have to maintain two separate images if 90% of it is overlap.
 
−
@1126668456 <skippy> perhaps the FG-on-a-disc could even be a mini-CD?
 
−
@1126668463 <tymp> will portland need to use this in-house?
 
−
@1126668473 <tymp> skippy : business-card
 
−
@1126668482 <skippy> tymp: sure, or thar.
 
−
@1126668485 <skippy> *that
 
−
@1126668514 <WormRunner> the CD is useful even if portland continued to clone
 
−
@1126668528 <skippy> WormRunner: can you elaborate?
 
−
@1126668545 <gate> vagrantc: as long as we maintain good simple-ccd profiles maintaining them is pretty easy
 
−
@1126668549 <tymp> WormRunner : i'm wondering who is the intended user?
 
−
@1126668568 <WormRunner> We grant boxes to people and organizations who may notbe in portland and at some point need to reinstall
 
−
@1126668574 <vagrantc> gate: it's still more maintainence, and i would like to stick them all on one CD. but if we can't, oh well.
 
−
@1126668578 <tymp> i think the cd's highest value would be...
 
−
@1126668586 <tymp> WormRunner : exactly what i'm thinking
 
−
@1126668590 <WormRunner> coming back to town is a real hassle
 
−
@1126668609 <gate> I think the aim is one CD but if we can't fit it then o well
 
−
@1126668611 <tymp> i think reinstall is the highest value of the cd
 
−
@1126668631 <WormRunner> and one cd would be best if at all possible
 
−
@1126668667 <skippy> have any packages been marked for removal from the original FreekBox3 build, to squeeze out some extra room?
 
−
@1126668674 <WormRunner> even if it means giving up wesnoth  ;-)
 
−
@1126668678 <vagrantc> has anyone actually used two CDs with debian?  it's kindof a pain, honestly.
 
−
@1126668681 <skippy> or is the current FB3 locked-in, package wise?
 
−
@1126668684 <tymp> i think aside from reinstallation without ethernet, the cd will not be hugely needed
 
−
@1126668696 [vagrantc] ACTION does the give up wesnoth dance!
 
−
@1126668701 <tymp> vagrantc : but you can assume broadband
 
−
@1126668702 <WormRunner> lol
 
−
@1126668714 <vagrantc> tymp: that, is a very stupid assumtion.
 
−
@1126668725 <tymp> vagrantc : how come?
 
−
@1126668736 <WormRunner> very few of our adopters have broadbanc
 
−
@1126668738 <WormRunner> d
 
−
@1126668748 <vagrantc> tymp: well, even if you have broadband, installing from a CD is *way* faster than a basic DSL connection.
 
−
@1126668762 <tymp> vagrantc : but very few of your adopters will need to install lessdisks
 
−
@1126668767 <skippy> when I said earlier "two CDs", I didn't mean a CD set, a la Debian install CDs.  I meant two standalone CDs.
 
−
@1126668790 <skippy> one CD for users, from which they could rebuild their system.
 
−
@1126668792 <vagrantc> skippy: well, for an application server, nearly all of the freekbox3 packages are useful.
 
−
@1126668798 <tymp> vagrantc : what i mean is, the multi-install is not needed by dialup users
 
−
@1126668814 <vagrantc> tymp: of course not.
 
−
@1126668818 <skippy> one CD for FG folks, who want to have a terminal server, and FGdb, and thorough documentation, etc
 
−
@1126668915 <skippy> vagrantc: We don't use an application server (yet), so theutiilty of bundling that on a CD for users is lost on me.
 
−
@1126668964 <tymp> .. so the overall objective is ill-defined
 
−
@1126668982 <skippy> tymp: I'd concur with that.
 
−
@1126668985 <tymp> ugh, too many variables
 
−
@1126668993 <vagrantc> skippy: and having a couple extra menu items is totally unacceptable?
 
−
@1126669005 <tymp> but i am so happy vagrantc has been working on it!
 
−
@1126669021 <skippy> vagrantc: if the target user is not intended to use those menu options, they have no business being present if it's in our control to decide.
 
−
@1126669070 <vagrantc> skippy: i guess, if you want to maintain a separate CD that only has freekbox3 packages, you are welcome to.
 
−
@1126669075 [WormRunner] ACTION reserves judgement
 
−
@1126669091 <vagrantc> (or freekbox3-gnome, or whatever).
 
−
@1126669093 <tymp> lets step back and clarify the goals - on the list
 
−
@1126669103 <skippy> well, that's a fine example of "PDX way or the high way".
 
−
@1126669103 <tymp> eh, distro list
 
−
@1126669139 <vagrantc> skippy: i live in new mexico at the moment, and am interested in propegating freegeeks everywhere.
 
−
@1126669151 <tymp> skippy : i think it is an example of vagrant is doing all the work so his perspective deserves a little more weight
 
−
@1126669159 <WormRunner> vagrantc is a pdx refugee!
 
−
@1126669169 <tymp> oh jeez  ;)
 
−
@1126669178 <WormRunner> tymp:  I agree
 
−
@1126669188 <tymp> edit: * almost all the work
 
−
@1126669192 <skippy> propogating FGs is a different issue than making CDs for users.  It was my understanding that it was specifically this issue that was under discussion.
 
−
@1126669193 <WormRunner> lol
 
−
@1126669217 <vagrantc> skippy: people building freegeeks are users.
 
−
@1126669221 <tymp> skippy : everything is prapagation!
 
−
@1126669224 <skippy> tymp: I'd very much like to contribute to the work, but amfinding it challenging to find the right entry vector for my current skillset.
 
−
@1126669246 <tymp> skippy : i'm there too at the moment.
 
−
@1126669251 <stillflame> vagrantc: are you suggesting a personae of "Freegeek Startupist"?
 
−
@1126669254 <{gate}> it shoudl getter beter when we have a place to store code
 
−
@1126669260 <vagrantc> skippy: as gate said, it is not difficult to create extra CD images with simple-cdd ...
 
−
@1126669264 <skippy> if we're all going to simply defer to vagrant, then this entrire agenda item can be entirely excised.
 
−
@1126669271 <vagrantc> stillflame: perhaps i am.
 
−
@1126669292 <WormRunner> that would be an interesting persona
 
−
@1126669297 <tymp> {gate} : and a good way to get folks into that - which will follow organically i spose
 
−
@1126669310 <tymp> {gate} : once it's there
 
−
@1126669315 <vagrantc> i have no intention of rail-roading anything.
 
−
@1126669345 <{gate}> I think we are a bit off topic here
 
−
@1126669350 <WormRunner> could be
 
−
@1126669354 <tymp> skippy : no, just i expect vagrantc has thought about this more than the rest of us
 
−
@1126669357 <skippy> are there any actions to be taken, here?
 
−
@1126669359 <stillflame> skippy: right, we need to decide what balance of work and options we want.  vagrantc: are you only capable of handling one installer cd?  if so, we need to decide what cd would best serve all freegeeks right now.
 
−
@1126669382 <tymp> stillflame : i intend to get up to snuff on it in oct
 
−
@1126669394 <stillflame> okay then, all of us: how many cds can we maintain?
 
−
@1126669435 <tymp> .. i really think this will all make sense if we have some discussion about the intended purpose(s)
 
−
@1126669452 <vagrantc> it is not impossible to make two CD images, but the mostcrude test cycle of each CD build takes 4-8 hours.  i don't want to double that.
 
−
@1126669467 <tymp> ah!
 
−
@1126669478 <stillflame> tymp: yeah, i agree.  i think we should ignore making more cds until we have things we're sure we want to add to the cds
 
−
@1126669485 <vagrantc> so someone else can do it, and i will happily help them get up to speed with simple-cdd to do it.
 
−
@1126669495 <{gate}> columbus plans on testing these things too.  curned out two on sunday and tested both.
 
−
@1126669499 <tymp> and it's quicker to do on real hardware
 
−
@1126669514 <tymp> than emulated
 
−
@1126669520 <vagrantc> tymp: but makes a lot of CD coasters.
 
−
@1126669523 <stillflame> vagrantc: can you commit to making some sort of documentation on how to do that build cycle?
 
−
@1126669534 <vagrantc> stillflame: sure!
 
−
@1126669536 <tymp> vagrantc : use rewritables
 
−
@1126669543 <skippy> rewritable CDs should prevent coasters.
 
−
@1126669550 <tymp> jinx!
 
−
@1126669554 <skippy> darnit!
 
−
@1126669557 <tymp> heh
 
−
@1126669565 <vagrantc> tymp: i don't have access to any CD burners
 
−
@1126669584 <skippy> commit: take to the distro list the question of objectivesfor CD images.
 
−
@1126669585 <stillflame> vagrantc: freegeek.pdx would happily donate one
 
−
@1126669591 <tymp> vagrantc : nor a spare box, i assumed - was thinking, here'show others can help
 
−
@1126669609 <vagrantc> stillflame: i will soon be too mobile to lug around extra hardware.
 
−
@1126669614 <stillflame> mmm
 
−
@1126669639 <tymp> stillflame : grant vagrantc a new laptop w/ burner :)
 
−
@1126669649 <WormRunner> yeah!
 
−
@1126669653 <vagrantc> so it sounds like a lot of this discussion might be better had on the list?
 
−
@1126669654 <stillflame> that's possible
 
−
@1126669655 <skippy> who else has commitments for this, before we move on?
 
−
@1126669668 [vagrantc] ACTION committed to something ... ?
 
−
@1126669680 <tymp> we have fifteen minutes, and we haven't checked in on past commitments
 
−
@1126669687 <stillflame> vagrantc: docs on freekbox3 build cycle
 
−
@1126669704 <vagrantc> commit: document freekbox3 installer CD build cycle
 
−
@1126669715 <skippy> item 2e) SVN
 
−
@1126669734 <skippy> status report from PDX?
 
−
@1126669735 <tymp> i am concerned we aren't going to go over past commitments
 
−
@1126669747 <tymp> can we do that quickly?
 
−
@1126669753 <vagrantc> tymp: there is considerable overlap with existing topics
 
−
@1126669760 <stillflame> svn server is currently being put into the dmz, after which it will be accessable globally.  still some configuration issues to work out with buildbot and such.
 
−
@1126669775 <tymp> vagrantc : but to have it in one place
 
−
@1126669783 <tymp> stillflame : eta?
 
−
@1126669788 <vagrantc> tymp: i think there will be time.
 
−
@1126669792 <{gate}> so when can we start getting accounts
 
−
@1126669801 <stillflame> i'll work on it all tomorrow night, and i think that will be enough.
 
−
@1126669825 <tymp> well, since we started... meho?
 
−
@1126669837 <tymp> oh.. that's real old
 
−
@1126669851 <tymp> oh, i'm looking at the wrong agenda
 
−
@1126669852 <vagrantc> ?
 
−
@1126669866 <tymp> gate?
 
−
@1126669879 <stillflame> tymp: hold on while i finish with svn
 
−
@1126669885 <tymp> ah, sorry
 
−
@1126669896 <stillflame> it will be set up for both webdav and svn+ssh, and i'll need to get login info for everyone
 
−
@1126669919 <stillflame> trac is installed, and will need to be configured for each project hosted
 
−
@1126669922 <{gate}> so that means u want our pub keys
 
−
@1126669926 <stillflame> {gate}: right
 
−
@1126669961 [tymp] ACTION apologizes for being on another planed for a moment
 
−
@1126669964 <stillflame> if people send things to me now, i can add them in once things are up and tell everyone about it.
 
−
@1126669990 <stillflame> so carryover commitment for me on svn
 
−
@1126670006 <stillflame> COMMIT: finish svn, add user access (either ssh or webdav)
 
−
@1126670026 <stillflame> oh, and i need to remember to set up ssl certs
 
−
@1126670034 <skippy> okay.  previous commitments.
 
−
@1126670040 <vagrantc> stillflame: including anonymous access?
 
−
@1126670069 [tymp] ACTION meant "planet"
 
−
@1126670085 <skippy> meho: popcon.  still pending.  gate:  setup fb3-gnome packages -- in process.  stillflame: request for coordinator; unnecessary now.
 
−
@1126670092 <skippy> errr, not meho; me.  sorry.
 
−
@1126670102 <stillflame> vagrantc: anon is working, yeah
 
−
@1126670110 <{gate}> yup, thats the status of the gnome package.
 
−
@1126670121 <skippy> vagrantc: post about new "official" fb3 packages; post about restructuring.  document reprepro.
 
−
@1126670128 <stillflame> skippy: and i did it over email, i think.
 
−
@1126670131 <vagrantc> flaked on all accounts.
 
−
@1126670149 <vagrantc> we kind of discussed the main issues here for the packaging/restructuring.
 
−
@1126670151 <stillflame> we all read the zen paper, though
 
−
@1126670154 [stillflame] ACTION applauds us.
 
−
@1126670163 <skippy> tymp: media player on wiki?
 
−
@1126670182 <tymp> no.  flaked.  but also, i don't know if that's the right place for it
 
−
@1126670208 <tymp> i can make a stub for documenting options, but it really seems like a discussion topic
 
−
@1126670209 <WormRunner> Is that a discussion of the relative merits?
 
−
@1126670215 <tymp> yes
 
−
@1126670229 <WormRunner> wiki can be a good place then
 
−
@1126670230 <vagrantc> maybe distro list?
 
−
@1126670238 <tymp> vagrantc : yeah
 
−
@1126670239 [vagrantc] ACTION hates discussions on wikis
 
−
@1126670248 <tymp> yes, it's not really suitable
 
−
@1126670252 <skippy> the list better ensures that I at least will answer.
 
−
@1126670256 <WormRunner> vagrantc: ok, then on the list
 
−
@1126670285 <tymp> but the wiki can be good for distilling the discussion - if that's desirable
 
−
@1126670297 <WormRunner> yes.  I can commit to that part
 
−
@1126670315 <vagrantc> sounds good.
 
−
@1126670317 <tymp> okay, given to WormRunner
 
−
@1126670321 <skippy> any final business?
 
−
@1126670328 <tymp> next meeting
 
−
@1126670345 <skippy> the 27th
 
−
@1126670347 <tymp> agenda deadline? facilitator?
 
−
@1126670402 <tymp> i'll facilitate, and have a rough agenda up by next tues, ifno one else does it
 
−
@1126670407 <tymp> k?
 
−
@1126670416 <skippy> deadline should be the friday before the meeting, methinks, at the latest.
 
−
@1126670436 <tymp> that sound good, at the latest
 
−
@1126670448 <vagrantc> tymp: i think commitments maybe should come before on-going issues, in the future (it was my bad organization that started the trend)
 
−
@1126670462 <tymp> yes, makes sense.  np
 
−
@1126670479 <vagrantc> and if we've got tons of extra time, we can always agreeto add new items :)
 
−
@1126670535 <skippy> okay... last chance to say anything on the record...
 
−
@1126670556 <tymp> is there an after-party? ;p
 
−
@1126670558 <skippy> </meeting>
 
−
@1126670573 <{gate}> crap
 
−
@1126670577 <tymp> thanks you all
 
−
@1126670581 <{gate}> I mean its bed time
 
−
@1126670584 <{gate}> later
 
−
@1126670590 <tymp> {gate} : cheers
 
−
@1126670591 <skippy> g'night {gate}
 
−
@1126670591 <vagrantc> tymp: what was the thing you wanted to discuss if we hadextra time?
 
−
@1126670600 <skippy> communication
 
−
@1126670602 <tymp> "communication"
 
−
@1126670617 <vagrantc> that's where things usually break down, yes.
 
−
@1126670693 <tymp> actually, the thing in my mind was minor/simple: it can be appropriate to have off-list discussion - if it is specific ... workgroup discussion.  eg, i plan to mail you and WormRunner on the .. whatever that was we agreed to work on and document thing
 
−
@1126670733 <vagrantc> package repository building?
 
−
@1126670740 <tymp> though, your policy of encouraging on-list discussion is good - and i think clearly things fall off the list by accident and need to be nudged back on sometimes
 
−
@1126670751 <tymp> yes, that should be it
 
−
@1126670796 <tymp> but wonder if there's a way to talk about it as a broader topic too "how to improve communications (on an ongoing basis)"
 
−
@1126670810 <vagrantc> it's important to not over-whelm the list with lots of information, but at the same time, i think it's even more important to keep everything documented and accessible.
 
−
@1126670841 <tymp> maybe there could be some known system of subject line codes..
 
−
@1126670850 <tymp> to make it easy to filter
 
−
@1126670864 <tymp> like "workgroup: x"
 
−
@1126670866 <vagrantc> i think people should just use meaningful subjects.
 
−
@1126670881 <vagrantc> we all could probably improve that.
 
−
@1126670890 <tymp> shouldcouldwould :)
 
−
@1126670902 <vagrantc> and maybe including the working group in the title is part of that ...
 
−
@1126670918 <WormRunner> being willing to change subjects too -- A (was C)
 
−
@1126670925 [vagrantc] ACTION nods
 
−
@1126670947 <tymp> and you could say "hi, welcome to blabla, you may want to ignore emails with "signifier" in the subject.."
 
−
@1126670963 <tymp> "..while you get acquainted"
 
−
@1126670998 <tymp> WormRunner : truely
 
−
@1126671005 <vagrantc> well, i need to go harvest, divvy up, and distribute food tomorrow :)
 
−
@1126671014 <skippy> good night.
 
−
@1126671017 <tymp> cool.  enjoy.
 
−
@1126671039 <tymp> it *feels* late here.  charms of insomnia.
 
−
@1126671048 <WormRunner> yeah, I need to head off as well.
 
−
@1126671064 <tymp> thanks much for coming WormRunner
 
−
@1126671069 <tymp> !
 
−
@1126671072 <WormRunner> my pleasure
 
−
@1126671117 <tymp> stillflame : were you posting a log?  i'll put a summary up
 
−
@1126671129 <tymp> ... pretty easy since we followed the agenda so closely
 
−
@1126671133 <stillflame> i will
 
−
@1126671143 <stillflame> COMMIT: post log
 
−
@1126671145 <stillflame> =:)
 
−
@1126671193 <tymp> commit : post summary :)
 
−
@1126671254 [meho] ACTION commits to attend next meeting
 
−
@1126672960 <stillflame> yay!  svn.freegeek.org is up-ish.
 
−
@1126672970 [stillflame] ACTION wishes ferm were installed on our firewall
 
 
</pre>
 
</pre>
  
 
[[Category:Distro]]
 
[[Category:Distro]]

Latest revision as of 14:16, 10 May 2013

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  • date: Sep 13, 2005
  • checkin time: 7-7:15pm PDT -0700 (10-10:15pm EDT)
  • meeting time 7:15pm PDT -0700 (10:15pm EDT)
  • meet in irc.freenode.net #freegeek-distro

Agenda

unfinished items from last meeting:

  • freekbox3 packaging:
    • building new freekbox3 packages [1]
    • new freekbox3 package archive possibilities:

ongoing items:

  • user-oriented-design
  • Prognosis: how is this project looking?
  • Long-term outlook - including definition of objectives, estimation of required work, and timeline
  • hosting our own popularity-contest server
  • trimming a multi-profile Install CD
  • svn repository hosted at svn.freegeek.org ?

new items:

  • new items here

commitments from last meeting:

  • skippy
    • continued research of popcon server
  • gate
    • setup freekbox3-gnome package
  • stillflame
    • post a note to distro asking for a facilitator
  • Vagrant
    • post to distro list about new "official" freekbox3 packages
    • post to distro list about re-structuring freekbox3 package archive
    • document reprepro on the wiki
  • tymp
    • start a media player page on the wiki
  • anybody
    • look for similar themes in current personae, drop inappropriate debian-np personae

log / summary

Present

skippy(scott in columbus - facilitator), tymp(rob in olympia), vagrant("freegeek at large"), gate(greg, columbus), romdos(dave, pdx), stillflame(martin, pdx), WormRunner(michael, pdx), meho(matteo, pdx)

Summary

  • freekbox3 packaging:
    • building new freekbox3 packages [1] (http://web.freegeek.org/freekbox3)
      • it's desirable to have new 'official' fb3 packages as the cvs version is considerable out of sync with the release packages (0.1.2). commitments to build and test new packages (vagrant, martin)
    • new freekbox3 package archive possibilities
      • hand-rolled method is most flexible, and this will be tried. commitments to implement this and document it (vagrant, michael, rob)
  • user-oriented-design
    • is this a 'project' or an approach, or both?
    • how to inform the notion of the 'user'?
      • poll adoption teachers, tech support, [build teachers]
      • gather/use user feedback
    • choosing the 'user persona(e)' to design for
      • several personae
        • per local freegeeks [what makes them different?]
        • per types of use
          • 'adopter' user
          • startup fg user
          • other? ('grantbox' user, teachers, ...)
      • reducing the number of personae
        • compile/reduce existing personae
        • or ?
  • Prognosis and Long-term outlook
    • how transferable is fgpdx distro to other freegeeks?
    • change in work-process due to inclusion of newer freegeeks...
      • social factors
      • technical factors
  • hosting our own popularity-contest server
    • commitment to install/test by next meeting (scott)
  • trimming a multi-profile Install CD
    • what should the cd include, user-reinsall cd vs 'freegeek on a disc'
      • profiles, package-sets: laptop, desktop, base-server, 'workstation', lessdisks server...
    • simplifying testing: test w/ actual cdrw burn/installs?
    • reducing size of package-set(s) to fit on cd
    • definition of objectives in making an install cd...
  • svn repository hosted at svn.freegeek.org
    • commitment to get it working (martin).
    • will be setup for webdav and svn+ssh. logins for all are needed.

Commitments

martin:

  • get tested a freekbox3 package release
  • post instructions to pdx QC process.
  • finish svn, add user access (either ssh or webdav)
  • post log of meeting

scott:

  • install and test a popcon server before next meeting.
  • take to the distro list the question of objectives for CD images.

rob:

  • spend 4 hours over next two weeks helping document putting packages packages in repository (michael wanted to help with this "as long as I can poke you enough where I fail to understand")
  • post summary of meeting

michael:

  • I will email the adoptionteachers list [to arrange a meeting to discuss developing user personae]

vagrant:

  • document freekbox3 installer CD build cycle
  • hand-roll package repository scripts until a better method is devised.

matteo:

  • attend next meeting

somebody:

  • get feedback from build teachers [on user personae].

Full Log

[7:10pm] <vagrantc> we also, in addition to logging the meeting notes, should find someone like ideath to consolidate the notes after the meeting ... i spent probably half an hour reading through the log mostly just to get commitments from folks.
[7:10pm] <stillflame> re: notes, i'm logging and can post them up afterwards. is that enough?
[7:10pm] <stillflame> right.
[7:11pm] <WormRunner> vagrantc: thanks
[7:11pm] <stillflame> i won't have time to do the log parsing.
[7:12pm] <stillflame> at least, not in the next week.
[7:12pm] <tymp> i'll try to note the main points to post as well - though won't likely have time to parse the log soon either
[7:12pm] <stillflame> how about we agree to an easily searchable commitment format, like "COMMIT: ..."
[7:12pm] <tymp> good idea
[7:13pm] <WormRunner> yes
[7:13pm] <tymp> is anyone pseudo-facilitating?
[7:13pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: very clever
[7:13pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i think that would be skippy
[7:13pm] <tymp> great
[7:14pm] <stillflame> that also could be used for decisions ("DECISION: ...") or anything else we deem important.
[7:14pm] <skippy> okay -- it's about that time.
[7:15pm] <tymp> ..something for future agenda items too?  agenda:
[7:15pm] * stillflame nods.
[7:15pm] <skippy> check in. Who's present.
[7:15pm] <skippy> skippy, freegeek columbus.
[7:15pm] <tymp> hi, rob here in olympia..  
[7:16pm] <vagrantc> i'm here, but i haven't had a lot of time to work on distro ... i'm part of freegeek at large :)
[7:16pm] <gate> greg, columbus
[7:16pm] <stillflame> i'm coming out of freegeek portland oregon
[7:16pm] <romdos> dave, pdx
[7:16pm] * stillflame pokes WormRunner
[7:16pm] <skippy> has everyone reviewed the agenda? Any last minute changes / additions ?
[7:16pm] <WormRunner> michael, portland fg
[7:17pm] * vagrantc notices that the agenda is in the topic for this channel
[7:18pm] <tymp> skippy : i reviewed it, would say go with it ..
[7:18pm] * stillflame is good
[7:18pm] <skippy> first item: unfinished biz.
[7:18pm] <skippy> 1a) FB3 packaging.
[7:19pm] <skippy> who wants to speak about that?
[7:19pm] <tymp> ..not sure whether the listed items are that relevant at this moment..
[7:19pm] <tymp> maybe more important is the recent distro conversation between vagrantc and gate
[7:19pm] <tymp> is that the same topic?
[7:19pm] <vagrantc> i can talk about packaging, if we want to talk about it now.
[7:19pm] <tymp> oi
[7:19pm] <gate> sounds fun
[7:20pm] <skippy> go ahead, vagrantc
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i would say it's a third topic on that theme, but it's also a new item
[7:20pm] * tymp nods
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> so, i want to get new "official" freekbox3 packages, since there have been a lot of changes in cvs not present in the released packages (0.1.2)
[7:21pm] <vagrantc> i need some people to test new packages, and ideally folks from freegeek portland.
[7:21pm] <vagrantc> that's the first item.
[7:21pm] <gate> sounds like a good idea, release before we break it
[7:21pm] <tymp> is there any procedure established for getting the packages updated?
[7:21pm] <vagrantc> it would ease the CD building considerably ... any takers?
[7:21pm] <tymp> i mean, for getting agreement to take action on that?
[7:22pm] <tymp> vagrantc : you're asking for someone to *do* it?
[7:22pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: i can offer to have available users try out installer disks.
[7:22pm] <stillflame> provided there's an iso i can burn from
[7:22pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i can build the packages, or help someone build the packages, but i need someone to test the packages.
[7:23pm] <WormRunner> I can do an install or two and see how it goes
[7:23pm] <skippy> is there a defined testing criteria / process?
[7:23pm] <vagrantc> not that i'm aware of.
[7:23pm] <skippy> is such a thing necessary?
[7:23pm] <tymp> perhaps its second nature to those in pdx?
[7:23pm] <skippy> What constitutes "testing" ?
[7:24pm] <tymp> yes, i'm not clear either
[7:24pm] <vagrantc> probably go through the QC process ?
[7:24pm] <WormRunner> yeah. for start
[7:24pm] <stillflame> okay
[7:24pm] <vagrantc> maybe have someone who's been a teacher to run through a "class" with it?
[7:25pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: adoption teacher?
[7:25pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: yeah, and build teachers too, probably.
[7:25pm] <skippy> sorry for being obtuse, but does this mean that Oly and CMH are unable to help test?
[7:25pm] <stillflame> WormRunner: can you try to pull an adoption teacher in that?
[7:26pm] <WormRunner> sure. and I have been doing some of that myself
[7:26pm] <vagrantc> anyone who wants to test can give input, but since portland relies on it crucially, i think it's crucial to have testers there.
[7:26pm] <tymp> tangent : i'm going to set about polling for feedback/approval of the gui changes i made... a procedure or suggestions how best to do this would help
[7:26pm] <stillflame> okay, COMMIT: to get tested a freekbox3 package release
[7:27pm] <skippy> but if there's no dcoumented test process, how can we best participate?
[7:27pm] <stillflame> tymp: would the distro RT work?
[7:27pm] <stillflame> skippy: ah, right. i can offer up slightly outdated QC instructions.
[7:27pm] <skippy> stillflame: that would help. please do.
[7:27pm] <vagrantc> skippy: eyeball it up, see if anything is obviously broken ... walk through the adoption class outline, do build QC process ...
[7:28pm] <vagrantc> that's a start.
[7:28pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: post instructions to pdx QC process.
[7:28pm] <tymp> stillflame : yes.  i'm also planning to spam adoption-teachers, build, and something
[7:28pm] <skippy> next item: 1b) new images
[7:29pm] <vagrantc> skippy: could you clarify?
[7:29pm] <skippy> vagrantc: "building new freekbox3 packages".
[7:29pm] <vagrantc> oh, i thought that was what we just covered ?
[7:30pm] <skippy> okay. Item 1c) mini-dinstall / reprepro / hand-rolled
[7:30pm] <vagrantc> again, i put it on the agenda, so i'll summarize
[7:30pm] <vagrantc> basically, it would be helpful to have a more standard package repository format
[7:31pm] <vagrantc> so that tools such as debpartial-mirror and reprepro can more easily mirror our freekbox3 package archive
[7:31pm] <stillflame> what's the cost of doing so?
[7:31pm] <vagrantc> our current archive is at http://web.freegeek.org/freekbox3
[7:32pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: just need to agree on a process for building the archive, and learn different commands.
[7:33pm] <vagrantc> mini-dinstall would be most useful for developers making experimental releases and cvs builds, reprepro would be best for standard archive format for our released packages, and our hand-rolled one could be as good as reprepro, but more flexible ... but it would require writing it.
[7:33pm] <stillflame> so we just need to choose between those three mentioned?
[7:33pm] * stillflame withdraws his last comment
[7:33pm] <gate> by hand is to much work
[7:33pm] <tymp> vagrantc : what do you think is best?
[7:34pm] <vagrantc> gate: "by-hand" means writing a very simple 5-15 line script to do it, and i already have most of it written for the lessdisks project
[7:34pm] <gate> ok so thats not as bad then, I though u ment copy files and then create packages.gz
[7:35pm] <vagrantc> tymp: reprepro might be the easiest to start with, but it likes to delete old packages, whereas i would like to keep them around.
[7:35pm] <tymp> vagrantc : so you are not sure?  seems like no one else is either
[7:35pm] <gate> reprepro sounds bad to me
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> mini-dinstall is the easiest, but the archive format isn't really any better.
[7:36pm] * WormRunner expresses his ignorance of these matters
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> a backported version of reprepro might also satisfy our needs.
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> but then we've got to deal with a backport ...
[7:36pm] <WormRunner> is reprepo modifiable easily?
[7:36pm] <skippy> is one demonstrably better than the others, even if it still has shortcomings?
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's written in C ... so i'd say no.
[7:37pm] <gate> if we have to deal with packports whats wrong with the hand meathod
[7:37pm] <WormRunner> ok
[7:37pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i guess i'm a little inclined towards hand-rolled scripts ...
[7:37pm] <tymp> if we said hand-rolled, what would be a resonable deadline to have that?
[7:38pm] <gate> does apt-move or any other tools help with it
[7:38pm] <tymp> ie, how urgent vs time required and available
[7:38pm] <vagrantc> the exact tool isn't even that important, in my opinion ... i guess it's more an issue of process- how do we decide what goes into the package repository, who does it, etc.
[7:39pm] <stillflame> what's the importance of serving up old package versions?
[7:39pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i could get a functional archive working in a matter of days with the hand-rolled method.
[7:39pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: historical relevence, easy to revert if we broke something badly
[7:39pm] <gate> all the stable releases should stay and maybe an auto build after a cvs commit
[7:39pm] <skippy> can we rsync or manually copy old packaes in some way?
[7:40pm] <vagrantc> we could use a method that uses both mini-dinstall and some other method ...
[7:40pm] * tymp really has no investment yet in this issue
[7:41pm] <skippy> so, can we take action, or do we need to discuss on the list some more?
[7:41pm] <vagrantc> would anyone want to work with me on these issues, getting it done, getting it documented, and just giving us the ok to just do what we want?
[7:41pm] <vagrantc> within reason :)
[7:42pm] <WormRunner> I would say if vagrantc has an idea of how to get it done and wants to, we could go with his hand-rolled idea
[7:42pm] <tymp> i *want* to, but can't commit this month
[7:42pm] <gate> I would but It will have to hold off till Oct
[7:42pm] <tymp> yay, October!
[7:42pm] <tymp> (me too)
[7:42pm] <vagrantc> ideally, i'd like to have it done by next meeting ...
[7:42pm] <tymp> i second WormRunner
[7:43pm] <tymp> vagrantc : say "commit"? :))
[7:43pm] <vagrantc> i haven't found a co-conspirator yet
[7:43pm] <skippy> commit: allow vagrantc to hand-roll packages until a better method is devised.
[7:43pm] <tymp> what investment will the co-conspiritor need to make?
[7:44pm] <vagrantc> maybe they get to do the documentation- how to put packages into the repository, mainly.
[7:45pm] <vagrantc> so that the documentation works for someone inexperienced with these matters already
[7:45pm] <tymp> i can commit 4 hours before next meeting to that .. ?
[7:45pm] <tymp> .. i think i am inexperienced enough :)
[7:45pm] <vagrantc> i can just do it, and hope that my documentation is good enough
[7:46pm] <vagrantc> and if anyone wants to help, they would be welcome to
[7:46pm] <tymp> commit : spend 4 hours over next two weeks helping document putting packages in repository
[7:46pm] <WormRunner> I would be happy to help document, as long as I can poke you enough where I fail to understand
[7:46pm] <vagrantc> sounds great!
[7:47pm] <skippy> okay; sounds like consensus to me. Vagrant will prepare packages, and WormRunner and tymp will assist documentation.
[7:47pm] <tymp> is communication on the agenda?
[7:47pm] <skippy> next section: on-going business.
[7:47pm] <tymp> is communication on the agenda?
[7:47pm] <skippy> no, tymp, it's not.
[7:47pm] <tymp> i'd like to parking-lot that
[7:48pm] <skippy> what does that mean?
[7:48pm] <tymp> (ie, if we get through the rest of the agenda...)
[7:48pm] <WormRunner> =table
[7:48pm] <skippy> ok. if we get through.
[7:48pm] <WormRunner> I presume
[7:48pm] <tymp> ha, that's simpler
[7:48pm] <skippy> item 2a) user-oriented-design.
[7:48pm] <skippy> has everyone read the Zini paper?
[7:48pm] <gate> yup
[7:48pm] <tymp> yes. 
[7:49pm] <skippy> any questions?
[7:49pm] <vagrantc> re-read it earlier today :)
[7:49pm] <tymp> skippy : can you estimate time we should spend on this item?
[7:49pm] <skippy> tymp: it's an on-going agenda item, so I'm comfortable giving this 5 - 10 minutes tops.
[7:49pm] <skippy> does anyone have any questions re: zini ?
[7:50pm] <tymp> well... re this project of doing useroriented design..
[7:50pm] <stillflame> does moving toward more user-centric design imply that we would move to distro to debian-np?
[7:50pm] <tymp> i'd like to see some timeline
[7:50pm] <stillflame> move *the* distro
[7:51pm] <tymp> that seems like something that's worth considering
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: not at all.
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: it is a totally separate issue.
[7:51pm] <skippy> stillflame: I think debian-np is more "business user" oriented.
[7:51pm] <tymp> or, perhaps "move" is too strong
[7:51pm] <stillflame> okay, thanks.
[7:51pm] <skippy> tymp: timeline for this in what way?
[7:51pm] <tymp> goals, dates
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> user-oriented-design is just techniques to inform our design decisions
[7:51pm] <tymp> 1 month, 1 year
[7:52pm] <WormRunner> a way of thinking
[7:52pm] <tymp> i think it's a long-term project
[7:52pm] <vagrantc> it is a life-long project, but i see some specific goals:
[7:52pm] <WormRunner> I think this is a way of thinking we just need to never forget
[7:52pm] <vagrantc> create a persona for each of the freegeek categories
[7:52pm] <vagrantc> trim the adoption program personae down to 1 or 2 personae
[7:53pm] <WormRunner> 3
[7:53pm] <tymp> does anyone else think : there are kinda two projects here 1) bottom-up, working with what we have and making it cleaner, 2) top-down, thinking about what it should be long-term
[7:53pm] <stillflame> so this is something that the adoption teachers should contribute heavily to
[7:53pm] <vagrantc> exactly how many is up for debate, but the fewer the better, or we'll have a very muddy design.
[7:53pm] <WormRunner> ok
[7:54pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: absolutely!
[7:54pm] <WormRunner> stillflame: yes, I think so
[7:54pm] <WormRunner> and support
[7:54pm] <tymp> stillflame : yea, and feedback systems that we hope to build in would contribute
[7:54pm] <vagrantc> i think the most appropriate areas of expertise are adoption teachers and tech support.
[7:55pm] <tymp> i think there's a meta-issue with design that requires a different approach
[7:55pm] <tymp> it's not very technical at all
[7:55pm] <stillflame> okay, i think a physical meeting is needed to really start these personae off, so WormRunner, romdos, meho and/or i need to get a meeting organized with teachers here to define them.
[7:56pm] <WormRunner> commit: I will email the adoptionteachers list
[7:56pm] <skippy> I've loosely fleshed out what I perceive to be an FGCMH user.
[7:56pm] <vagrantc> hopefully, the various freegeeks will be able to make use of the same personae, but there may be differences to consider.
[7:56pm] <stillflame> WormRunner: and set up a meeting to define personae
[7:56pm] <tymp> the ideal will be one persona
[7:56pm] <tymp> * to have one persona
[7:56pm] <vagrantc> but the ideal is impossible, by the very diversity of freegeek.
[7:57pm] <gate> I don't see the persona as that specific that we could not all get buy with one
[7:57pm] <stillflame> skippy: good. would it be okay for the meeting to try to absorb that persona into another?
[7:57pm] <WormRunner> I see several distinct types of users
[7:57pm] <vagrantc> it should largely be a "sterotypical" user- but defined enough to get a feel for their personality
[7:57pm] <skippy> gate: Maybe not at the moment, but I can envision, say, an Hispanic FreeGeek initiative, that might have different goals from FGCMH
[7:58pm] <skippy> stillflame: you folks are welcome to build upon my start; but I'd like to keep a separate FGCMH persona, so that we don't mis-direct our efforts once we start deploying systems.
[7:58pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's likely that freegeek just has a hard design.
[7:58pm] <gate> well yes but as it currently stands I see maybe 2 at most
[7:59pm] <tymp> i hope we can keep an open mind to agreeing on one
[7:59pm] <vagrantc> skippy: well, once you start deploying systems, you may need to create a persona from scratch and forget about the old one ...
[8:00pm] <skippy> vagrantc: perhaps. But that would happen whether FG/PDX absorbs our persona or not.
[8:00pm] <skippy> gate: did you review my persona sketch ?
[8:00pm] <gate> ya
[8:00pm] <vagrantc> skippy: definitely. and if you're lucky, you'll realise that the other freegeek persona fit you just fine :)
[8:00pm] <gate> I read it a few days back
[8:01pm] Quits: meho (n=matteo@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) ("leaving")
[8:01pm] <skippy> vagrantc: please excuse my skepticism. You may be completely correct; but you folks have a lot of inertia behind a lot of what you've done, and we're in a position to enjoy a fresh start with no preconceived notions. I'd like to use that as much as possible.
[8:01pm] <gate> seems a lot like the rest, just a different background but computer uses were about the same between them
[8:01pm] Joins: meho (n=matteo@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) Clones: romdos & stillflame [10 users]
[8:02pm] <skippy> anyway, we're straying from the task at hand.
[8:02pm] <tymp> skippy : i think your skepticism is sensible.  but the hope would be..
[8:02pm] <vagrantc> skippy: of course. only time will give a real idea if any of the personae are good.
[8:03pm] <tymp> that's more than 10 minutes
[8:03pm] <skippy> it seems to me that the general consensus for the currently defined personae are that they are task-oriented _users_, and not tweakers or customizers.
[8:03pm] <tymp> yes
[8:03pm] <gate> as stated before get the teachers/tech support in here to tell us what really needs done
[8:04pm] <vagrantc> i think it is important to note that all of the existing adoption personae were created by a single person.
[8:04pm] <skippy> commit: get feedback from build teachers. (I think someone said that already)
[8:04pm] <WormRunner> yes
[8:04pm] <gate> just restating so we can move on
[8:04pm] <vagrantc> skippy: though that would largely be for a build persona, not the adoption persona
[8:04pm] <WormRunner> and adoption teachers and tech support
[8:05pm] <WormRunner> so now that we have committed to a process for that, what is next
[8:05pm] <skippy> next item: 2b) prognosis
[8:05pm] <skippy> which I take to include long-term outlook, objectives, and timeline
[8:06pm] <tymp> we're dead in 6 months
[8:06pm] <WormRunner> ?
[8:06pm] <skippy> are you being silly, tymp ?
[8:06pm] <tymp> just kidding
[8:06pm] <tymp> sorry
[8:06pm] <skippy> okay.
[8:06pm] <gate> I was going to say, I just say the doc and she did not tell me this
[8:06pm] <WormRunner> tech support people have no sense of humor. don't confuse us
[8:07pm] <tymp> lol
[8:07pm] <skippy> I think the addition / collaboration of new FGs will help many aspects of the project(s) overall, but it will also slow things down a fai rbit.
[8:07pm] <skippy> we don't have any real milestones for the distro project.
[8:08pm] <skippy> does anyone have any comments before moving on?
[8:08pm] <tymp> yeah, seems like there is a fundamental shift?
[8:08pm] <vagrantc> well, the freekbox3 is an already mostly finished milestone- many systems are already out there being used!
[8:08pm] <tymp> i think skippy means, the project as non-pdx-ers know it
[8:09pm] <WormRunner> and other than some minor stuff, they are working pretty well
[8:09pm] <skippy> I think it's fair to say that the FB3 is an FB/PDX-specific success; and not directly transferrable to start-ups
[8:09pm] <vagrantc> the gnome fork definitely adds a lot of complication, but is leading to a better infrastructure.
[8:09pm] <tymp> but, i do want to the non-locals to not lose sight of all the work pdx has done
[8:09pm] <skippy> PDX has a lot of investment, and it feels to me that they take a lot for granted.
[8:10pm] <skippy> that's neither good nor bad, by the way -- it's just a statement of fact.
[8:10pm] <vagrantc> skippy: any specific examples?
[8:10pm] <tymp> it's to be expected, i think
[8:10pm] <skippy> errr.. perception.
[8:10pm] <tymp> (skippy): i agree, on the whole
[8:11pm] <tymp> well, it is beginning to move -
[8:11pm] <skippy> vagrantc: this discussion shows several examples, vagrantc, as folks talk about build and adoption and teaching.
[8:11pm] <tymp> i think there has not been real motivation to open it up
[8:11pm] <skippy> We have no such hierarchy / definition, so we don't have the same kinds of approach to issues.
[8:11pm] <vagrantc> skippy: definitely.
[8:12pm] <tymp> vagrantc : an example is the installation process - which until recently was assumed to be based on cloning
[8:12pm] <tymp> ("assumed" - in practice)
[8:13pm] <WormRunner> and there has been motion for a long time toward a more standard install
[8:13pm] <vagrantc> basically, freegeek portland had a lot of stuff that basically worked, but is not necessarily easy to replicate or maintain over the long-term, and coordinating with other groups is forcing the project into a good direction.
[8:13pm] <skippy> decision making seems to be "the PDX way, or the highway", to be blunt.
[8:13pm] <WormRunner> good grief
[8:13pm] <tymp> skippy : i think that is a mis-perception.  but i have had that perception too.
[8:14pm] <vagrantc> well, the meeting time is portland-centric ...
[8:14pm] <tymp> i think the central problem is the ease of misunderstanding, rather than any specific inattention or disregard, etc
[8:14pm] <skippy> tymp: that may be the bulk of it.
[8:14pm] <skippy> anyway, do we have any more comments re: prognosis?
[8:15pm] <vagrantc> basically, any group is going to be resistant to changing something that is basically working for them.
[8:15pm] <tymp> i think it's important to respect the special "ownership" of portland over freegeek - if that word is not too ugly
[8:15pm] <tymp> vagrantc : it's just social inertia
[8:15pm] <WormRunner> It seems to me that there is a great deal of movement by portland, and that these meetings are evidence of that
[8:16pm] <vagrantc> tymp: it's more than merely social- it is technical inertia, also.
[8:16pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: it feels to me that portland is less actively involved, at the moment, actually.
[8:16pm] <tymp> vagrantc : by 'just', i mean, just inertia - but i take it back
[8:17pm] <skippy> WormRunner: I hope you're not offended by my comment. I'm not trying to cause trouble, or whine. I'm trying to be honest, because this is something about which I'm passionate (as I assume are all of you).
[8:17pm] <skippy> are there any action items for this prognosis issue?
[8:17pm] <vagrantc> skippy: again, i'd be curious about more of the specifics ?
[8:17pm] <skippy> vagrantc: I suggest we put this on hold for the mailing list.
[8:17pm] <WormRunner> skippy: I am troubled by what I see as an adversarial approach
[8:17pm] <vagrantc> skippy: sounds perfect.
[8:18pm] <WormRunner> skippy: yes
[8:18pm] <skippy> WormRunner: feel free to expand your concerns on the mailing list. I don't think I'm being adversarial.
[8:18pm] <skippy> item 2c) popcon server.
[8:18pm] <skippy> This was my item. I've taken no action on it.
[8:19pm] <skippy> Commit: install and test a popcon server before next meeting.
[8:19pm] <tymp> sweet.  that was quick!
[8:19pm] <skippy> item 2d) multi-profile CD.
[8:19pm] <vagrantc> haven't done much on this- last CD build was 699MB, including a lot of the freekbox3-gnome trimming.
[8:20pm] <tymp> what's the date on that?
[8:20pm] <skippy> vagrantc: ought there be a distinction between a "user" multi-profile CD, and a "FreeGeek on a disc" multi-profile CD?
[8:20pm] <vagrantc> september 3rd.
[8:20pm] <gate> I made some non release CDs this week which seemed to work allright but I have not gotten back to them since sunday
[8:20pm] <vagrantc> skippy: maybe. ideally we can fit it all on one CD.
[8:20pm] <tymp> the 8/23 one has some problems - but i didn't feel the need so much to comment, as i'm thinking it's still ... alpha stage?
[8:21pm] <tymp> vagrantc : did you get my comment about the broken cd link on the wiki?
[8:21pm] <vagrantc> skippy: there is so much overlap, i don't see the advantage of the extra overhead required for two CDs.
[8:21pm] <vagrantc> tymp: nope.
[8:22pm] <tymp> in general : what is the intended product of work on multi-installer cd?
[8:22pm] <skippy> vagrantc: I disagree with the need to fit it all on one CD. Many users are not likely to be interested in replicating an FG for themselves. It seems a better investment of our time to provide users with a very focused CD; and give interested parties the extra tools to do what they need to make an FG.
[8:22pm] <gate> ya, the only reason to go two CD is if the packages grow too much
[8:23pm] <tymp> skippy : that is rather what i'd been thinking
[8:23pm] <WormRunner> I have thought it would be good to have a basic CD but a package to install an expanded set of relevant packages
[8:23pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i guess we disagree on what's a better investment of time.
[8:23pm] <stillflame> we currently need to install a few different set of packages: laptops, baseservers and freekboxes.
[8:23pm] <gate> The first time a real package comes up for dropping or adding and size become a consern make two CDs, its pretty easy with simple-ccd
[8:23pm] <stillflame> we = fg.pdx
[8:23pm] <vagrantc> gate: we're already riding on the edge of a 700MB image, though.
[8:23pm] <gate> I know
[8:24pm] <tymp> vagrantc : i still don't see clearly why it's desirable to have a single cd image with all the profiles
[8:24pm] <vagrantc> of course, according to user-oriented design, we should have a separate CD for every persona :)
[8:24pm] <tymp> lol
[8:25pm] <gate> less coasters laying around
[8:25pm] <tymp> but there should be one persona, so, for each of one ;)
[8:25pm] <tymp> gate : laying around *where*
[8:25pm] <gate> my coffee table
[8:25pm] <vagrantc> tymp: well, i don't want to have to maintain two separate images if 90% of it is overlap.
[8:25pm] <skippy> perhaps the FG-on-a-disc could even be a mini-CD?
[8:25pm] <tymp> will portland need to use this in-house?
[8:25pm] <tymp> skippy : business-card
[8:26pm] <skippy> tymp: sure, or thar.
[8:26pm] <skippy> *that
[8:26pm] <WormRunner> the CD is useful even if portland continued to clone
[8:26pm] <skippy> WormRunner: can you elaborate?
[8:27pm] <gate> vagrantc: as long as we maintain good simple-ccd profiles maintaining them is pretty easy
[8:27pm] <tymp> WormRunner : i'm wondering who is the intended user?
[8:27pm] <WormRunner> We grant boxes to people and organizations who may not be in portland and at some point need to reinstall
[8:27pm] <vagrantc> gate: it's still more maintainence, and i would like to stick them all on one CD. but if we can't, oh well.
[8:27pm] <tymp> i think the cd's highest value would be... 
[8:27pm] <tymp> WormRunner : exactly what i'm thinking
[8:27pm] <WormRunner> coming back to town is a real hassle
[8:28pm] <gate> I think the aim is one CD but if we can't fit it then o well
[8:28pm] <tymp> i think reinstall is the highest value of the cd
[8:28pm] <WormRunner> and one cd would be best if at all possible
[8:29pm] <skippy> have any packages been marked for removal from the original FreekBox3 build, to squeeze out some extra room?
[8:29pm] <WormRunner> even if it means giving up wesnoth ;-)
[8:29pm] <vagrantc> has anyone actually used two CDs with debian? it's kind of a pain, honestly.
[8:29pm] <skippy> or is the current FB3 locked-in, package wise?
[8:29pm] <tymp> i think aside from reinstallation without ethernet, the cd will not be hugely needed
[8:29pm] * vagrantc does the give up wesnoth dance!
[8:29pm] <tymp> vagrantc : but you can assume broadband
[8:29pm] <WormRunner> lol
[8:29pm] <vagrantc> tymp: that, is a very stupid assumtion.
[8:30pm] <tymp> vagrantc : how come?
[8:30pm] gate (n=gate@cpe-24-210-70-207.columbus.res.rr.com) is now known as {gate}
[8:30pm] <WormRunner> very few of our adopters have broadbanc
[8:30pm] <WormRunner> d
[8:30pm] <vagrantc> tymp: well, even if you have broadband, installing from a CD is *way* faster than a basic DSL connection.
[8:30pm] <tymp> vagrantc : but very few of your adopters will need to install lessdisks
[8:30pm] <skippy> when I said earlier "two CDs", I didn't mean a CD set, a la Debian install CDs. I meant two standalone CDs.
[8:31pm] <skippy> one CD for users, from which they could rebuild their system.
[8:31pm] <vagrantc> skippy: well, for an application server, nearly all of the freekbox3 packages are useful.
[8:31pm] <tymp> vagrantc : what i mean is, the multi-install is not needed by dialup users
[8:31pm] <vagrantc> tymp: of course not.
[8:31pm] <skippy> one CD for FG folks, who want to have a terminal server, and FGdb, and thorough documentation, etc
[8:33pm] <skippy> vagrantc: We don't use an application server (yet), so the utiilty of bundling that on a CD for users is lost on me.
[8:34pm] <tymp> .. so the overall objective is ill-defined
[8:34pm] <skippy> tymp: I'd concur with that.
[8:34pm] <tymp> ugh, too many variables
[8:34pm] <vagrantc> skippy: and having a couple extra menu items is totally unacceptable?
[8:34pm] <tymp> but i am so happy vagrantc has been working on it!
[8:35pm] <skippy> vagrantc: if the target user is not intended to use those menu options, they have no business being present if it's in our control to decide.
[8:35pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i guess, if you want to maintain a separate CD that only has freekbox3 packages, you are welcome to.
[8:35pm] * WormRunner reserves judgement
[8:36pm] <vagrantc> (or freekbox3-gnome, or whatever).
[8:36pm] <tymp> lets step back and clarify the goals - on the list
[8:36pm] <tymp> eh, distro list
[8:36pm] <skippy> well, that's a fine example of "PDX way or the high way".
[8:37pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i live in new mexico at the moment, and am interested in propegating freegeeks everywhere.
[8:37pm] <tymp> skippy : i think it is an example of vagrant is doing all the work so his perspective deserves a little more weight
[8:37pm] <WormRunner> vagrantc is a pdx refugee!
[8:37pm] <tymp> oh jeez  ;)
[8:37pm] <WormRunner> tymp: I agree
[8:37pm] <tymp> edit: * almost all the work
[8:37pm] <skippy> propogating FGs is a different issue than making CDs for users. It was my understanding that it was specifically this issue that was under discussion.
[8:37pm] <WormRunner> lol
[8:38pm] <vagrantc> skippy: people building freegeeks are users.
[8:38pm] <tymp> skippy : everything is prapagation!
[8:38pm] <skippy> tymp: I'd very much like to contribute to the work, but am finding it challenging to find the right entry vector for my current skillset.
[8:38pm] <tymp> skippy : i'm there too at the moment.  
[8:38pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: are you suggesting a personae of "Freegeek Startupist"?
[8:38pm] <{gate}> it shoudl getter beter when we have a place to store code
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> skippy: as gate said, it is not difficult to create extra CD images with simple-cdd ...
[8:39pm] <skippy> if we're all going to simply defer to vagrant, then this entrire agenda item can be entirely excised.
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: perhaps i am.
[8:39pm] <WormRunner> that would be an interesting persona
[8:39pm] <tymp> {gate} : and a good way to get folks into that - which will follow organically i spose
[8:39pm] <tymp> {gate} : once it's there
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> i have no intention of rail-roading anything.
[8:40pm] <{gate}> I think we are a bit off topic here
[8:40pm] <WormRunner> could be
[8:40pm] <tymp> skippy : no, just i expect vagrantc has thought about this more than the rest of us
[8:40pm] <skippy> are there any actions to be taken, here?
[8:40pm] <stillflame> skippy: right, we need to decide what balance of work and options we want. vagrantc: are you only capable of handling one installer cd? if so, we need to decide what cd would best serve all freegeeks right now.
[8:41pm] <tymp> stillflame : i intend to get up to snuff on it in oct
[8:41pm] <stillflame> okay then, all of us: how many cds can we maintain?
[8:41pm] <tymp> .. i really think this will all make sense if we have some discussion about the intended purpose(s)
[8:42pm] <vagrantc> it is not impossible to make two CD images, but the most crude test cycle of each CD build takes 4-8 hours. i don't want to double that.
[8:42pm] <tymp> ah!
[8:42pm] <stillflame> tymp: yeah, i agree. i think we should ignore making more cds until we have things we're sure we want to add to the cds
[8:42pm] <vagrantc> so someone else can do it, and i will happily help them get up to speed with simple-cdd to do it.
[8:42pm] <{gate}> columbus plans on testing these things too. curned out two on sunday and tested both.
[8:42pm] <tymp> and it's quicker to do on real hardware
[8:43pm] <tymp> than emulated
[8:43pm] <vagrantc> tymp: but makes a lot of CD coasters.
[8:43pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: can you commit to making some sort of documentation on how to do that build cycle?
[8:43pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: sure!
[8:43pm] <tymp> vagrantc : use rewritables
[8:43pm] <skippy> rewritable CDs should prevent coasters.
[8:43pm] <tymp> jinx!
[8:43pm] <skippy> darnit!
[8:43pm] <tymp> heh
[8:44pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i don't have access to any CD burners
[8:44pm] <skippy> commit: take to the distro list the question of objectives for CD images.
[8:44pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: freegeek.pdx would happily donate one
[8:44pm] <tymp> vagrantc : nor a spare box, i assumed - was thinking, here's how others can help
[8:44pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: i will soon be too mobile to lug around extra hardware.
[8:44pm] <stillflame> mmm
[8:45pm] <tymp> stillflame : grant vagrantc a new laptop w/ burner :)
[8:45pm] <WormRunner> yeah!
[8:45pm] <vagrantc> so it sounds like a lot of this discussion might be better had on the list?
[8:45pm] <stillflame> that's possible
[8:45pm] <skippy> who else has commitments for this, before we move on?
[8:45pm] * vagrantc committed to something ... ?
[8:46pm] <tymp> we have fifteen minutes, and we haven't checked in on past commitments
[8:46pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: docs on freekbox3 build cycle
[8:46pm] <vagrantc> commit: document freekbox3 installer CD build cycle
[8:46pm] <skippy> item 2e) SVN
[8:46pm] <skippy> status report from PDX?
[8:46pm] <tymp> i am concerned we aren't going to go over past commitments
[8:47pm] <tymp> can we do that quickly?
[8:47pm] <vagrantc> tymp: there is considerable overlap with existing topics
[8:47pm] <stillflame> svn server is currently being put into the dmz, after which it will be accessable globally. still some configuration issues to work out with buildbot and such.
[8:47pm] <tymp> vagrantc : but to have it in one place
[8:47pm] <tymp> stillflame : eta?
[8:47pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i think there will be time.
[8:47pm] <{gate}> so when can we start getting accounts
[8:48pm] <stillflame> i'll work on it all tomorrow night, and i think that will be enough.
[8:48pm] <tymp> well, since we started... meho?
[8:48pm] <tymp> oh.. that's real old
[8:48pm] <tymp> oh, i'm looking at the wrong agenda
[8:48pm] <vagrantc> ?
[8:49pm] <tymp> gate?
[8:49pm] <stillflame> tymp: hold on while i finish with svn
[8:49pm] <tymp> ah, sorry
[8:49pm] <stillflame> it will be set up for both webdav and svn+ssh, and i'll need to get login info for everyone
[8:49pm] <stillflame> trac is installed, and will need to be configured for each project hosted
[8:50pm] <{gate}> so that means u want our pub keys
[8:50pm] <stillflame> {gate}: right
[8:50pm] * tymp apologizes for being on another planed for a moment
[8:50pm] <stillflame> if people send things to me now, i can add them in once things are up and tell everyone about it.
[8:51pm] <stillflame> so carryover commitment for me on svn
[8:51pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: finish svn, add user access (either ssh or webdav)
[8:51pm] <stillflame> oh, and i need to remember to set up ssl certs
[8:51pm] <skippy> okay. previous commitments.
[8:52pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: including anonymous access?
[8:52pm] * tymp meant "planet"
[8:52pm] <skippy> meho: popcon. still pending. gate: setup fb3-gnome packages -- in process. stillflame: request for coordinator; unnecessary now.
[8:52pm] <skippy> errr, not meho; me. sorry.
[8:53pm] <stillflame> vagrantc: anon is working, yeah
[8:53pm] <{gate}> yup, thats the status of the gnome package.
[8:53pm] <skippy> vagrantc: post about new "official" fb3 packages; post about restructuring. document reprepro.
[8:53pm] <stillflame> skippy: and i did it over email, i think.
[8:53pm] <vagrantc> flaked on all accounts.
[8:53pm] <vagrantc> we kind of discussed the main issues here for the packaging/restructuring.
[8:53pm] <stillflame> we all read the zen paper, though
[8:53pm] * stillflame applauds us.
[8:54pm] <skippy> tymp: media player on wiki?
[8:54pm] <tymp> no.  flaked.  but also, i don't know if that's the right place for it
[8:54pm] <tymp> i can make a stub for documenting options, but it really seems like a discussion topic 
[8:54pm] <WormRunner> Is that a discussion of the relative merits?
[8:54pm] <tymp> yes
[8:55pm] <WormRunner> wiki can be a good place then
[8:55pm] <vagrantc> maybe distro list?
[8:55pm] <tymp> vagrantc : yeah
[8:55pm] * vagrantc hates discussions on wikis
[8:55pm] <tymp> yes, it's not really suitable
[8:55pm] <skippy> the list better ensures that I at least will answer.
[8:55pm] <WormRunner> vagrantc: ok, then on the list
[8:56pm] <tymp> but the wiki can be good for distilling the discussion - if that's desirable
[8:56pm] <WormRunner> yes. I can commit to that part
[8:56pm] <vagrantc> sounds good.
[8:56pm] <tymp> okay, given to WormRunner
[8:56pm] <skippy> any final business?
[8:56pm] <tymp> next meeting
[8:57pm] <skippy> the 27th
[8:57pm] <tymp> agenda deadline? facilitator?
[8:58pm] <tymp> i'll facilitate, and have a rough agenda up by next tues, if no one else does it
[8:58pm] <tymp> k?
[8:58pm] <skippy> deadline should be the friday before the meeting, methinks, at the latest.
[8:58pm] <tymp> that sound good, at the latest
[8:58pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i think commitments maybe should come before on-going issues, in the future (it was my bad organization that started the trend)
[8:59pm] <tymp> yes, makes sense.  np
[8:59pm] <vagrantc> and if we've got tons of extra time, we can always agree to add new items :)
[9:00pm] <skippy> okay... last chance to say anything on the record...
[9:00pm] <tymp> is there an after-party? ;p
[9:00pm] <skippy> </meeting>
[9:00pm] <{gate}> crap
[9:00pm] <tymp> thanks you all
[9:01pm] <{gate}> I mean its bed time
[9:01pm] <{gate}> later
[9:01pm] <tymp> {gate} : cheers
[9:01pm] <skippy> g'night {gate}
[9:01pm] <vagrantc> tymp: what was the thing you wanted to discuss if we had extra time?
[9:01pm] <skippy> communication
[9:01pm] <tymp> "communication"
[9:01pm] <vagrantc> that's where things usually break down, yes.
[9:02pm] <tymp> actually, the thing in my mind was minor/simple: it can be appropriate to have off-list discussion - if it is specific ... workgroup discussion.  eg, i plan to mail you and WormRunner on the .. whatever that was we agreed to work on and document thing
[9:03pm] <vagrantc> package repository building?
[9:03pm] <tymp> though, your policy of encouraging on-list discussion is good - and i think clearly things fall off the list by accident and need to be nudged back on sometimes
[9:03pm] <tymp> yes, that should be it
[9:04pm] <tymp> but wonder if there's a way to talk about it as a broader topic too "how to improve communications (on an ongoing basis)"
[9:04pm] <vagrantc> it's important to not over-whelm the list with lots of information, but at the same time, i think it's even more important to keep everything documented and accessible.
[9:05pm] <tymp> maybe there could be some known system of subject line codes..
[9:05pm] <tymp> to make it easy to filter
[9:05pm] <tymp> like "workgroup: x"
[9:05pm] <vagrantc> i think people should just use meaningful subjects.
[9:06pm] <vagrantc> we all could probably improve that.
[9:06pm] <tymp> shouldcouldwould :)
[9:06pm] <vagrantc> and maybe including the working group in the title is part of that ...
[9:06pm] <WormRunner> being willing to change subjects too -- A (was C)
[9:06pm] * vagrantc nods
[9:07pm] <tymp> and you could say "hi, welcome to blabla, you may want to ignore emails with "signifier" in the subject.."
[9:07pm] <tymp> "..while you get acquainted"
[9:07pm] <tymp> WormRunner : truely
[9:08pm] <vagrantc> well, i need to go harvest, divvy up, and distribute food tomorrow :)
[9:08pm] <skippy> good night.
[9:08pm] <tymp> cool.  enjoy.
[9:08pm] Quits: vagrantc (n=vagrant@pcp05158478pcs.montbl01.nm.comcast.net) ("leaving")
[9:08pm] <tymp> it *feels* late here.  charms of insomnia.
[9:08pm] <WormRunner> yeah, I need to head off as well.
[9:09pm] <tymp> thanks much for coming WormRunner
[9:09pm] <tymp> !
[9:09pm] <WormRunner> my pleasure
[9:09pm] Parts: WormRunner (n=worm_@pool-71-111-140-187.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net) ("Now where was I?") [8 users]
[9:09pm] Quits: skippy (n=skippy@two.skippy.net) ("[BX] Wouldn't it be great if the dog could walk itself?")
[9:09pm] <tymp> stillflame : were you posting a log?  i'll put a summary up
[9:10pm] <tymp> ... pretty easy since we followed the agenda so closely
[9:10pm] <stillflame> i will
[9:10pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: post log
[9:10pm] <stillflame> =:)
[9:11pm] <tymp> commit : post summary :)
[9:12pm] * meho commits to attend next meeting
[9:14pm] Quits: romdos (n=romsos@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) ("I left some time ago but left my computer on")
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