Distro/irc20050913

• date: Sep 13, 2005
• checkin time: 7-7:15pm PDT -0700 (10-10:15pm EDT)
• meeting time 7:15pm PDT -0700 (10:15pm EDT)
• meet in irc.freenode.net #freegeek-distro

Agenda

unfinished items from last meeting:

• freekbox3 packaging:
  • building new freekbox3 packages [1]
  • new freekbox3 package archive possibilities:
    • mini-dinstall
    • reprepro
    • built by hand, but similar structure to "regular" debian archive

ongoing items:

• user-oriented-design
• Prognosis: how is this project looking?
• Long-term outlook - including definition of objectives, estimation of required work, and timeline
• hosting our own popularity-contest server
• trimming a multi-profile Install CD
• svn repository hosted at svn.freegeek.org ?

new items:

• new items here

commitments from last meeting:

• skippy
  • continued research of popcon server

• gate
  • setup freekbox3-gnome package

• stillflame
  • post a note to distro asking for a facilitator

• Vagrant
  • post to distro list about new "official" freekbox3 packages
  • post to distro list about re-structuring freekbox3 package archive
  • document reprepro on the wiki

• tymp
  • start a media player page on the wiki

• everybody
  • read enrico zini's zen-paper on user-oriented-design

• anybody
  • look for similar themes in current personae, drop inappropriate debian-np personae

log / summary

Present

skippy(scott in columbus - facilitator), tymp(rob in olympia), vagrant("freegeek at large"), gate(greg, columbus), romdos(dave, pdx), stillflame(martin, pdx), WormRunner(michael, pdx), meho(matteo, pdx)

Summary

• freekbox3 packaging:
  • building new freekbox3 packages [1] (http://web.freegeek.org/freekbox3)
    • it's desirable to have new 'official' fb3 packages as the cvs version is considerable out of sync with the release packages (0.1.2). commitments to build and test new packages (vagrant, martin)
  • new freekbox3 package archive possibilities
    • hand-rolled method is most flexible, and this will be tried. commitments to implement this and document it (vagrant, michael, rob)

• user-oriented-design
  • is this a 'project' or an approach, or both?
  • how to inform the notion of the 'user'?
    • poll adoption teachers, tech support, [build teachers]
    • gather/use user feedback
  • choosing the 'user persona(e)' to design for
    • several personae
      • per local freegeeks [what makes them different?]
      • per types of use
        • 'adopter' user
        • startup fg user
        • other? ('grantbox' user, teachers, ...)
    • reducing the number of personae
      • compile/reduce existing personae
      • or ?

• Prognosis and Long-term outlook
  • how transferable is fgpdx distro to other freegeeks?
  • change in work-process due to inclusion of newer freegeeks...
    • social factors
    • technical factors

• hosting our own popularity-contest server
  • commitment to install/test by next meeting (scott)

• trimming a multi-profile Install CD
  • what should the cd include, user-reinsall cd vs 'freegeek on a disc'
    • profiles, package-sets: laptop, desktop, base-server, 'workstation', lessdisks server...
  • simplifying testing: test w/ actual cdrw burn/installs?
  • reducing size of package-set(s) to fit on cd
  • definition of objectives in making an install cd...

• svn repository hosted at svn.freegeek.org
  • commitment to get it working (martin).
  • will be setup for webdav and svn+ssh. logins for all are needed.

Commitments

[7:26pm] <stillflame> okay, COMMIT: to get tested a freekbox3 package release

[7:28pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: post instructions to pdx QC process.

[7:43pm] <skippy> commit: allow vagrantc to hand-roll packages until a better method is devised.

[7:46pm] <tymp> commit : spend 4 hours over next two weeks helping document putting packages

[7:56pm] <WormRunner> commit: I will email the adoptionteachers list

[8:04pm] <skippy> commit: get feedback from build teachers. (I think someone said that already)

[8:19pm] <skippy> Commit: install and test a popcon server before next meeting.

[8:44pm] <skippy> commit: take to the distro list the question of objectives for CD images.

[8:46pm] <vagrantc> commit: document freekbox3 installer CD build cycle

[8:51pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: finish svn, add user access (either ssh or webdav)

[9:10pm] <stillflame> COMMIT: post log

[9:12pm] * meho commits to attend next meeting

Full Log

@1126664213 <skippy> okay -- it's about that time.
@1126664222 <tymp> ..something for future agenda items too?  agenda:
@1126664229 [stillflame] ACTION nods.
@1126664247 <skippy> check in.  Who's present.
@1126664270 <skippy> skippy, freegeek columbus.
@1126664275 <tymp> hi, rob here in olympia..
@1126664298 <vagrantc> i'm here, but i haven't had a lot of time to work on distro ... i'm part of freegeek at large :)
@1126664302 <gate> greg, columbus
@1126664306 <stillflame> i'm coming out of freegeek portland oregon
@1126664310 <romdos> dave, pdx
@1126664327 [stillflame] ACTION pokes WormRunner
@1126664336 <skippy> has everyone reviewed the agenda?  Any last minute changes/ additions ?
@1126664338 <WormRunner> michael, portland fg
@1126664363 [vagrantc] ACTION notices that the agenda is in the topic for this channel
@1126664402 <tymp> skippy : i reviewed it, would say go with it ..
@1126664412 [stillflame] ACTION is good
@1126664418 <skippy> first item: unfinished biz.
@1126664423 <skippy> 1a) FB3 packaging.
@1126664461 <skippy> who wants to speak about that?
@1126664465 <tymp> ..not sure whether the listed items are that relevant at this moment..
@1126664482 <tymp> maybe more important is the recent distro conversation between vagrantc and gate
@1126664496 <tymp> is that the same topic?
@1126664505 <vagrantc> i can talk about packaging, if we want to talk about it now.
@1126664511 <tymp> oi
@1126664515 <gate> sounds fun
@1126664526 <skippy> go ahead, vagrantc
@1126664528 <vagrantc> tymp: i would say it's a third topic on that theme, but it's also a new item
@1126664537 [tymp] ACTION nods
@1126664566 <vagrantc> so, i want to get new "official" freekbox3 packages, since there have been a lot of changes in cvs not present in the released packages (0.1.2)
@1126664582 <vagrantc> i need some people to test new packages, and ideally folks from freegeek portland.
@1126664589 <vagrantc> that's the first item.
@1126664601 <gate> sounds like a good idea, release before we break it
@1126664624 <tymp> is there any procedure established for getting the packages updated?
@1126664627 <vagrantc> it would ease the CD building considerably ... any takers?
@1126664635 <tymp> i mean, for getting agreement to take action on that?
@1126664654 <tymp> vagrantc : you're asking for someone to *do* it?
@1126664667 <stillflame> vagrantc: i can offer to have available users try out installer disks.
@1126664680 <stillflame> provided there's an iso i can burn from
@1126664682 <vagrantc> tymp: i can build the packages, or help someone build the packages, but i need someone to test the packages.
@1126664702 <WormRunner> I can do an install or two and see how it goes
@1126664709 <skippy> is there a defined testing criteria / process?
@1126664718 <vagrantc> not that i'm aware of.
@1126664745 <skippy> is such a thing necessary?
@1126664752 <tymp> perhaps its second nature to those in pdx?
@1126664753 <skippy> What constitutes "testing" ?
@1126664766 <tymp> yes, i'm not clear either
@1126664783 <vagrantc> probably go through the QC process ?
@1126664797 <WormRunner> yeah. for start
@1126664800 <stillflame> okay
@1126664812 <vagrantc> maybe have someone who's been a teacher to run through a"class" with it?
@1126664824 <stillflame> vagrantc: adoption teacher?
@1126664838 <vagrantc> stillflame: yeah, and build teachers too, probably.
@1126664865 <skippy> sorry for being obtuse, but does this mean that Oly and CMH are unable to help test?
@1126664871 <stillflame> WormRunner: can you try to pull an adoption teacher inthat?
@1126664896 <WormRunner> sure. and I have been doing some of that myself
@1126664908 <vagrantc> anyone who wants to test can give input, but since portland relies on it crucially, i think it's crucial to have testers there.
@1126664921 <tymp> tangent : i'm going to set about polling for feedback/approval of the gui changes i made... a procedure or suggestions how best to do this would help
@1126664926 <stillflame> okay, COMMIT: to get tested a freekbox3 package release
@1126664941 <skippy> but if there's no dcoumented test process, how can we bestparticipate?
@1126664942 <stillflame> tymp: would the distro RT work?
@1126664971 <stillflame> skippy: ah, right.  i can offer up slightly outdated QC instructions.
@1126664986 <skippy> stillflame: that would help.  please do.
@1126664988 <vagrantc> skippy: eyeball it up, see if anything is obviously broken ... walk through the adoption class outline, do build QC process ...
@1126665008 <vagrantc> that's a start.
@1126665010 <stillflame> COMMIT: post instructions to pdx QC process.
@1126665015 <tymp> stillflame : yes.  i'm also planning to spam adoption-teachers, build, and something
@1126665040 <skippy> next item:  1b) new images
@1126665065 <vagrantc> skippy: could you clarify?
@1126665094 <skippy> vagrantc: "building new freekbox3 packages".
@1126665113 <vagrantc> oh, i thought that was what we just covered ?
@1126665131 <skippy> okay.  Item 1c) mini-dinstall  / reprepro / hand-rolled
@1126665148 <vagrantc> again, i put it on the agenda, so i'll summarize
@1126665178 <vagrantc> basically, it would be helpful to have a more standard package repository format
@1126665202 <vagrantc> so that tools such as debpartial-mirror and reprepro canmore easily mirror our freekbox3 package archive
@1126665226 <stillflame> what's the cost of doing so?
@1126665231 <vagrantc> our current archive is at http://web.freegeek.org/freekbox3
@1126665264 <vagrantc> stillflame: just need to agree on a process for buildingthe archive, and learn different commands.
@1126665323 <vagrantc> mini-dinstall would be most useful for developers makingexperimental releases and cvs builds, reprepro would be best for standard archive format for our released packages, and our hand-rolled one could be as good asreprepro, but more flexible ... but it would require writing it.
@1126665326 <stillflame> so we just need to choose between those three mentioned?
@1126665338 [stillflame] ACTION withdraws his last comment
@1126665344 <gate> by hand is to much work
@1126665351 <tymp> vagrantc : what do you think is best?
@1126665376 <vagrantc> gate: "by-hand" means writing a very simple 5-15 line script to do it, and i already have most of it written for the lessdisks project
@1126665414 <gate> ok so thats not as bad then, I though u ment copy files and then create packages.gz
@1126665431 <vagrantc> tymp: reprepro might be the easiest to start with, but it likes to delete old packages, whereas i would like to keep them around.
@1126665453 <tymp> vagrantc : so you are not sure?  seems like no one else is either
@1126665475 <gate> reprepro sounds bad to me
@1126665481 <vagrantc> mini-dinstall is the easiest, but the archive format isn't really any better.
@1126665483 [WormRunner] ACTION expresses his ignorance of these matters
@1126665493 <vagrantc> a backported version of reprepro might also satisfy our needs.
@1126665503 <vagrantc> but then we've got to deal with a backport ...
@1126665521 <WormRunner> is reprepo modifiable easily?
@1126665535 <skippy> is one demonstrably better than the others, even if it still has shortcomings?
@1126665539 <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's written in C ... so i'd say no.
@1126665544 <gate> if we have to deal with packports whats wrong with the hand meathod
@1126665545 <WormRunner> ok
@1126665582 <vagrantc> skippy: i guess i'm a little inclined towards hand-rolled scripts ...
@1126665599 <tymp> if we said hand-rolled, what would be a resonable deadline to have that?
@1126665617 <gate> does apt-move or any other tools help with it
@1126665636 <tymp> ie, how urgent vs time required and available
@1126665641 <vagrantc> the exact tool isn't even that important, in my opinion ... i guess it's more an issue of process- how do we decide what goes into the package repository, who does it, etc.
@1126665665 <stillflame> what's the importance of serving up old package versions?
@1126665673 <vagrantc> tymp: i could get a functional archive working in a matter of days with the hand-rolled method.
@1126665694 <vagrantc> stillflame: historical relevence, easy to revert if we broke something badly
@1126665707 <gate> all the stable releases should stay and maybe an auto build after a cvs commit
@1126665714 <skippy> can we rsync or manually copy old packaes in some way?
@1126665737 <vagrantc> we could use a method that uses both mini-dinstall and some other method ...
@1126665765 [tymp] ACTION really has no investment yet in this issue
@1126665810 <skippy> so, can we take action, or do we need to discuss on the list some more?
@1126665823 <vagrantc> would anyone want to work with me on these issues, getting it done, getting it documented, and just giving us the ok to just do what we want?
@1126665828 <vagrantc> within reason :)
@1126665858 <WormRunner> I would say if vagrantc has an idea of how to get it done and wants to, we could go with his hand-rolled idea
@1126665859 <tymp> i *want* to, but can't commit this month
@1126665863 <gate> I would but It will have to hold off till Oct
@1126665876 <tymp> yay, October!
@1126665881 <tymp> (me too)
@1126665892 <vagrantc> ideally, i'd like to have it done by next meeting ...
@1126665893 <tymp> i second WormRunner
@1126665907 <tymp> vagrantc : say "commit"? :))
@1126665922 <vagrantc> i haven't found a co-conspirator yet
@1126665930 <skippy> commit: allow vagrantc to hand-roll packages until a better method is devised.
@1126665947 <tymp> what investment will the co-conspiritor need to make?
@1126666009 <vagrantc> maybe they get to do the documentation- how to put packages into the repository, mainly.
@1126666028 <vagrantc> so that the documentation works for someone inexperienced with these matters already
@1126666053 <tymp> i can commit 4 hours before next meeting to that .. ?
@1126666070 <tymp> .. i think i am inexperienced enough :)
@1126666076 <vagrantc> i can just do it, and hope that my documentation is goodenough
@1126666089 <vagrantc> and if anyone wants to help, they would be welcome to
@1126666111 <tymp> commit : spend 4 hours over next two weeks helping document putting packages in repository
@1126666112 <WormRunner> I would be happy to help document, as long as I can poke you enough where I fail to understand
@1126666136 <vagrantc> sounds great!
@1126666147 <skippy> okay; sounds like consensus to me.  Vagrant will prepare packages, and WormRunner and tymp will assist documentation.
@1126666176 <tymp> is communication on the agenda?
@1126666179 <skippy> next section: on-going business.
@1126666183 <tymp> is communication on the agenda?
@1126666188 <skippy> no, tymp, it's not.
@1126666195 <tymp> i'd like to parking-lot that
@1126666204 <skippy> what does that mean?
@1126666210 <tymp> (ie, if we get through the rest of the agenda...)
@1126666222 <WormRunner> =table
@1126666226 <skippy> ok.  if we get through.
@1126666226 <WormRunner> I presume
@1126666232 <tymp> ha, that's simpler
@1126666237 <skippy> item 2a) user-oriented-design.
@1126666246 <skippy> has everyone read the Zini paper?
@1126666255 <gate> yup
@1126666256 <tymp> yes.
@1126666264 <skippy> any questions?
@1126666265 <vagrantc> re-read it earlier today :)
@1126666274 <tymp> skippy : can you estimate time we should spend on this item?
@1126666298 <skippy> tymp: it's an on-going agenda item, so I'm comfortable giving this 5 - 10 minutes tops.
@1126666310 <skippy> does anyone have any questions re: zini ?
@1126666337 <tymp> well... re this project of doing useroriented design..
@1126666357 <stillflame> does moving toward more user-centric design imply thatwe would move to distro to debian-np?
@1126666361 <tymp> i'd like to see some timeline
@1126666372 <stillflame> move *the* distro
@1126666388 <tymp> that seems like something that's worth considering
@1126666392 <vagrantc> stillflame: not at all.
@1126666403 <vagrantc> stillflame: it is a totally separate issue.
@1126666403 <skippy> stillflame: I think debian-np is more "business user" oriented.
@1126666405 <tymp> or, perhaps "move" is too strong
@1126666410 <stillflame> okay, thanks.
@1126666422 <skippy> tymp: timeline for this in what way?
@1126666432 <tymp> goals, dates
@1126666434 <vagrantc> user-oriented-design is just techniques to inform our design decisions
@1126666438 <tymp> 1 month, 1 year
@1126666444 <WormRunner> a way of thinking
@1126666445 <tymp> i think it's a long-term project
@1126666469 <vagrantc> it is a life-long project, but i see some specific goals:
@1126666471 <WormRunner> I think this is a way of thinking we just need to never forget
@1126666482 <vagrantc> create a persona for each of the freegeek categories
@1126666497 <vagrantc> trim the adoption program personae down to 1 or 2 personae
@1126666508 <WormRunner> 3
@1126666535 <tymp> does anyone else think : there are kinda two projects here 1) bottom-up, working with what we have and making it cleaner, 2) top-down, thinking about what it should be long-term
@1126666541 <stillflame> so this is something that the adoption teachers shouldcontribute heavily to
@1126666544 <vagrantc> exactly how many is up for debate, but the fewer the better, or we'll have a very muddy design.
@1126666551 <WormRunner> ok
@1126666563 <vagrantc> stillflame: absolutely!
@1126666564 <WormRunner> stillflame:  yes, I think so
@1126666588 <WormRunner> and support
@1126666597 <vagrantc> i think the most appropriate areas of expertise are adoption teachers and tech support.
@1126666597 <tymp> stillflame : yea, and feedback systems that we hope to buildin would contribute
@1126666626 <tymp> i think there's a meta-issue with design that requires a different approach
@1126666632 <stillflame> okay, i think a physical meeting is needed to really start these personae off, so WormRunner, romdos, meho and/or i need to get a meeting organized with teachers here to define them.
@1126666632 <tymp> it's not very technical at all
@1126666695 <WormRunner> commit: I will email the adoptionteachers list
@1126666697 <skippy> I've loosely fleshed out what I perceive to be an FGCMH user.
@1126666703 <vagrantc> hopefully, the various freegeeks will be able to make use of the same personae, but there may be differences to consider.
@1126666711 <stillflame> WormRunner: and set up a meeting to define personae
@1126666716 <tymp> the ideal will be one persona
@1126666724 <tymp> * to have one persona
@1126666739 <vagrantc> but the ideal is impossible, by the very diversity of freegeek.
@1126666747 <gate> I don't see the persona as that specific that we could not all get buy with one
@1126666766 <stillflame> skippy: good.  would it be okay for the meeting to tryto absorb that persona into another?
@1126666772 <WormRunner> I see several distinct types of users
@1126666782 <vagrantc> it should largely be a "sterotypical" user- but defined enough to get a feel for their personality
@1126666790 <skippy> gate: Maybe not at the moment, but I can envision, say, anHispanic FreeGeek initiative, that might have different goals from FGCMH
@1126666832 <skippy> stillflame: you folks are welcome to build upon my start; but I'd like to keep a separate FGCMH persona, so that we don't mis-direct our efforts once we start deploying systems.
@1126666839 <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's likely that freegeek just has a hard design.
@1126666841 <gate> well yes but as it currently stands I see maybe 2 at most
@1126666875 <tymp> i hope we can keep an open mind to agreeing on one
@1126666890 <vagrantc> skippy: well, once you start deploying systems, you may need to create a persona from scratch and forget about the old one ...
@1126666932 <skippy> vagrantc: perhaps.  But that would happen whether FG/PDX absorbs our persona or not.
@1126666946 <skippy> gate: did you review my persona sketch ?
@1126666960 <gate> ya
@1126666961 <vagrantc> skippy: definitely.  and if you're lucky, you'll realisethat the other freegeek persona fit you just fine :)
@1126666965 <gate> I read it a few days back
@1126667020 <skippy> vagrantc: please excuse my skepticism.  You may be completely correct; but you folks have a lot of inertia behind a lot of what you've done, and we're in a position to enjoy a fresh start with no preconceived notions.I'd like to use that as much as possible.
@1126667021 <gate> seems a lot like the rest, just a different background but computer uses were about the same between them
@1126667062 <skippy> anyway, we're straying from the task at hand.
@1126667069 <tymp> skippy : i think your skepticism is sensible.  but the hope would be..
@1126667084 <vagrantc> skippy: of course.  only time will give a real idea if any of the personae are good.
@1126667130 <tymp> that's more than 10 minutes
@1126667133 <skippy> it seems to me that the general consensus for the currently defined personae are that they are task-oriented _users_, and not tweakers or customizers.
@1126667145 <tymp> yes
@1126667151 <gate> as stated before get the teachers/tech support in here to tell us what really needs done
@1126667172 <vagrantc> i think it is important to note that all of the existingadoption personae were created by a single person.
@1126667181 <skippy> commit: get feedback from build teachers.  (I think someone said that already)
@1126667188 <WormRunner> yes
@1126667197 <gate> just restating so we can move on
@1126667204 <vagrantc> skippy: though that would largely be for a build persona, not the adoption persona
@1126667205 <WormRunner> and adoption teachers and tech support
@1126667240 <WormRunner> so now that we have committed to a process for that, what is next
@1126667252 <skippy> next item: 2b) prognosis
@1126667279 <skippy> which I take to include long-term outlook, objectives, andtimeline
@1126667286 <tymp> we're dead in 6 months
@1126667298 <WormRunner> ?
@1126667304 <skippy> are you being silly, tymp ?
@1126667306 <tymp> just kidding
@1126667308 <tymp> sorry
@1126667309 <skippy> okay.
@1126667332 <gate> I was going to say, I just say the doc and she did not tell me this
@1126667337 <WormRunner> tech support people have no sense of humor.  don't confuse us
@1126667345 <tymp> lol
@1126667352 <skippy> I think the addition / collaboration of new FGs will help many aspects of the project(s) overall, but it will also slow things down a fai rbit.
@1126667390 <skippy> we don't have any real milestones for the distro project.
@1126667423 <skippy> does anyone have any comments before moving on?
@1126667425 <tymp> yeah, seems like there is a fundamental shift?
@1126667425 <vagrantc> well, the freekbox3 is an already mostly finished milestone- many systems are already out there being used!
@1126667457 <tymp> i think skippy means, the project as non-pdx-ers know it
@1126667466 <WormRunner> and other than some minor stuff, they are working pretty well
@1126667470 <skippy> I think it's fair to say that the FB3 is an FB/PDX-specific success; and not directly transferrable to start-ups
@1126667478 <vagrantc> the gnome fork definitely adds a lot of complication, but is leading to a better infrastructure.
@1126667490 <tymp> but, i do want to the non-locals to not lose sight of all the work pdx has done
@1126667519 <skippy> PDX has a lot of investment, and it feels to me that they take a lot for granted.
@1126667546 <skippy> that's neither good nor bad, by the way -- it's just a statement of fact.
@1126667552 <vagrantc> skippy: any specific examples?
@1126667554 <tymp> it's to be expected, i think
@1126667555 <skippy> errr.. perception.
@1126667568 <tymp> 05(skippy05): i agree, on the whole
@1126667587 <tymp> well, it is beginning to move -
@1126667593 <skippy> vagrantc: this discussion shows several examples, vagrantc, as folks talk about build and adoption and teaching.
@1126667597 <tymp> i think there has not been real motivation to open it up
@1126667616 <skippy> We have no such hierarchy / definition, so we don't have the same kinds of approach to issues.
@1126667620 <vagrantc> skippy: definitely.
@1126667640 <tymp> vagrantc : an example is the installation process - which until recently was assumed to be based on cloning
@1126667672 <tymp> ("assumed" - in practice)
@1126667704 <WormRunner> and there has been motion for a long time toward a more standard install
@1126667714 <vagrantc> basically, freegeek portland had a lot of stuff that basically worked, but is not necessarily easy to replicate or maintain over the long-term, and coordinating with other groups is forcing the project into a good direction.
@1126667719 <skippy> decision making seems to be "the PDX way, or the highway",to be blunt.
@1126667728 <WormRunner> good grief
@1126667747 <tymp> skippy : i think that is a mis-perception.  but i have had that perception too.
@1126667784 <vagrantc> well, the meeting time is portland-centric ...
@1126667787 <tymp> i think the central problem is the ease of misunderstanding,rather than any specific inattention or disregard, etc
@1126667804 <skippy> tymp: that may be the bulk of it.
@1126667814 <skippy> anyway, do we have any more comments re: prognosis?
@1126667829 <vagrantc> basically, any group is going to be resistant to changing something that is basically working for them.
@1126667835 <tymp> i think it's important to respect the special "ownership" ofportland over freegeek - if that word is not too ugly
@1126667869 <tymp> vagrantc : it's just social inertia
@1126667878 <WormRunner> It seems to me that there is a great deal of movement by portland, and that these meetings are evidence of that
@1126667892 <vagrantc> tymp: it's more than merely social- it is technical inertia, also.
@1126667919 <vagrantc> WormRunner: it feels to me that portland is less actively involved, at the moment, actually.
@1126667921 <tymp> vagrantc : by 'just', i mean, just inertia - but i take it back
@1126667942 <skippy> WormRunner: I hope you're not offended by my comment. I'm not trying to cause trouble, or whine. I'm trying to be honest, because this is something about which I'm passionate (as I assume are all of you).
@1126667971 <skippy> are there any action items for this prognosis issue?
@1126667974 <vagrantc> skippy: again, i'd be curious about more of the specifics ?
@1126667991 <skippy> vagrantc: I suggest we put this on hold for the mailing list.
@1126667994 <WormRunner> skippy:  I am troubled by what I see as an adversarialapproach
@1126667998 <vagrantc> skippy: sounds perfect.
@1126668027 <WormRunner> skippy: yes
@1126668032 <skippy> WormRunner: feel free to expand your concerns on the mailing list.  I don't think I'm being adversarial.
@1126668038 <skippy> item 2c) popcon server.
@1126668050 <skippy> This was my item.  I've taken no action on it.
@1126668062 <skippy> Commit: install and test a popcon server before next meeting.
@1126668090 <tymp> sweet.  that was quick!
@1126668091 <skippy> item 2d) multi-profile CD.
@1126668118 <vagrantc> haven't done much on this- last CD build was 699MB, including a lot of the freekbox3-gnome trimming.
@1126668129 <tymp> what's the date on that?
@1126668138 <skippy> vagrantc: ought there be a distinction between a "user" multi-profile CD, and a "FreeGeek on a disc" multi-profile CD?
@1126668142 <vagrantc> september 3rd.
@1126668155 <gate> I made some non release CDs this week which seemed to work allright but I have not gotten back to them since sunday
@1126668170 <vagrantc> skippy: maybe.  ideally we can fit it all on one CD.
@1126668171 <tymp> the 8/23 one has some problems - but i didn't feel the need so much to comment, as i'm thinking it's still ... alpha stage?
@1126668192 <tymp> vagrantc : did you get my comment about the broken cd link on the wiki?
@1126668227 <vagrantc> skippy: there is so much overlap, i don't see the advantage of the extra overhead required for two CDs.
@1126668238 <vagrantc> tymp: nope.
@1126668242 <tymp> in general : what is the intended product of work on multi-installer cd?
@1126668250 <skippy> vagrantc: I disagree with the need to fit it all on one CD.  Many users are not likely to be interested in replicating an FG for themselves.  It seems a better investment of our time to provide users with a very focused CD; and give interested parties the extra tools to do what they need to make an FG.
@1126668257 <gate> ya, the only reason to go two CD is if the packages grow toomuch
@1126668308 <tymp> skippy : that is rather what i'd been thinking
@1126668312 <WormRunner> I have thought it would be good to have a basic CD buta package to install an expanded set of relevant packages
@1126668312 <vagrantc> skippy: i guess we disagree on what's a better investment of time.
@1126668315 <stillflame> we currently need to install a few different set of packages: laptops, baseservers and freekboxes.
@1126668325 <gate> The first time a real package comes up for dropping or adding and size become a consern make two CDs, its pretty easy with simple-ccd
@1126668326 <stillflame> we = fg.pdx
@1126668346 <vagrantc> gate: we're already riding on the edge of a 700MB image,though.
@1126668353 <gate> I know
@1126668377 <tymp> vagrantc : i still don't see clearly why it's desirable to have a single cd image with all the profiles
@1126668398 <vagrantc> of course, according to user-oriented design, we should have a separate CD for every persona :)
@1126668405 <tymp> lol
@1126668420 <gate> less coasters laying around
@1126668429 <tymp> but there should be one persona, so, for each of one ;)
@1126668446 <tymp> gate : laying around *where*
@1126668454 <gate> my coffee table
@1126668454 <vagrantc> tymp: well, i don't want to have to maintain two separate images if 90% of it is overlap.
@1126668456 <skippy> perhaps the FG-on-a-disc could even be a mini-CD?
@1126668463 <tymp> will portland need to use this in-house?
@1126668473 <tymp> skippy : business-card
@1126668482 <skippy> tymp: sure, or thar.
@1126668485 <skippy> *that
@1126668514 <WormRunner> the CD is useful even if portland continued to clone
@1126668528 <skippy> WormRunner: can you elaborate?
@1126668545 <gate> vagrantc: as long as we maintain good simple-ccd profiles maintaining them is pretty easy
@1126668549 <tymp> WormRunner : i'm wondering who is the intended user?
@1126668568 <WormRunner> We grant boxes to people and organizations who may notbe in portland and at some point need to reinstall
@1126668574 <vagrantc> gate: it's still more maintainence, and i would like to stick them all on one CD.  but if we can't, oh well.
@1126668578 <tymp> i think the cd's highest value would be...
@1126668586 <tymp> WormRunner : exactly what i'm thinking
@1126668590 <WormRunner> coming back to town is a real hassle
@1126668609 <gate> I think the aim is one CD but if we can't fit it then o well
@1126668611 <tymp> i think reinstall is the highest value of the cd
@1126668631 <WormRunner> and one cd would be best if at all possible
@1126668667 <skippy> have any packages been marked for removal from the original FreekBox3 build, to squeeze out some extra room?
@1126668674 <WormRunner> even if it means giving up wesnoth  ;-)
@1126668678 <vagrantc> has anyone actually used two CDs with debian?  it's kindof a pain, honestly.
@1126668681 <skippy> or is the current FB3 locked-in, package wise?
@1126668684 <tymp> i think aside from reinstallation without ethernet, the cd will not be hugely needed
@1126668696 [vagrantc] ACTION does the give up wesnoth dance!
@1126668701 <tymp> vagrantc : but you can assume broadband
@1126668702 <WormRunner> lol
@1126668714 <vagrantc> tymp: that, is a very stupid assumtion.
@1126668725 <tymp> vagrantc : how come?
@1126668736 <WormRunner> very few of our adopters have broadbanc
@1126668738 <WormRunner> d
@1126668748 <vagrantc> tymp: well, even if you have broadband, installing from a CD is *way* faster than a basic DSL connection.
@1126668762 <tymp> vagrantc : but very few of your adopters will need to install lessdisks
@1126668767 <skippy> when I said earlier "two CDs", I didn't mean a CD set, a la Debian install CDs.  I meant two standalone CDs.
@1126668790 <skippy> one CD for users, from which they could rebuild their system.
@1126668792 <vagrantc> skippy: well, for an application server, nearly all of the freekbox3 packages are useful.
@1126668798 <tymp> vagrantc : what i mean is, the multi-install is not needed by dialup users
@1126668814 <vagrantc> tymp: of course not.
@1126668818 <skippy> one CD for FG folks, who want to have a terminal server, and FGdb, and thorough documentation, etc
@1126668915 <skippy> vagrantc: We don't use an application server (yet), so theutiilty of bundling that on a CD for users is lost on me.
@1126668964 <tymp> .. so the overall objective is ill-defined
@1126668982 <skippy> tymp: I'd concur with that.
@1126668985 <tymp> ugh, too many variables
@1126668993 <vagrantc> skippy: and having a couple extra menu items is totally unacceptable?
@1126669005 <tymp> but i am so happy vagrantc has been working on it!
@1126669021 <skippy> vagrantc: if the target user is not intended to use those menu options, they have no business being present if it's in our control to decide.
@1126669070 <vagrantc> skippy: i guess, if you want to maintain a separate CD that only has freekbox3 packages, you are welcome to.
@1126669075 [WormRunner] ACTION reserves judgement
@1126669091 <vagrantc> (or freekbox3-gnome, or whatever).
@1126669093 <tymp> lets step back and clarify the goals - on the list
@1126669103 <skippy> well, that's a fine example of "PDX way or the high way".
@1126669103 <tymp> eh, distro list
@1126669139 <vagrantc> skippy: i live in new mexico at the moment, and am interested in propegating freegeeks everywhere.
@1126669151 <tymp> skippy : i think it is an example of vagrant is doing all the work so his perspective deserves a little more weight
@1126669159 <WormRunner> vagrantc is a pdx refugee!
@1126669169 <tymp> oh jeez  ;)
@1126669178 <WormRunner> tymp:  I agree
@1126669188 <tymp> edit: * almost all the work
@1126669192 <skippy> propogating FGs is a different issue than making CDs for users.  It was my understanding that it was specifically this issue that was under discussion.
@1126669193 <WormRunner> lol
@1126669217 <vagrantc> skippy: people building freegeeks are users.
@1126669221 <tymp> skippy : everything is prapagation!
@1126669224 <skippy> tymp: I'd very much like to contribute to the work, but amfinding it challenging to find the right entry vector for my current skillset.
@1126669246 <tymp> skippy : i'm there too at the moment.
@1126669251 <stillflame> vagrantc: are you suggesting a personae of "Freegeek Startupist"?
@1126669254 <{gate}> it shoudl getter beter when we have a place to store code
@1126669260 <vagrantc> skippy: as gate said, it is not difficult to create extra CD images with simple-cdd ...
@1126669264 <skippy> if we're all going to simply defer to vagrant, then this entrire agenda item can be entirely excised.
@1126669271 <vagrantc> stillflame: perhaps i am.
@1126669292 <WormRunner> that would be an interesting persona
@1126669297 <tymp> {gate} : and a good way to get folks into that - which will follow organically i spose
@1126669310 <tymp> {gate} : once it's there
@1126669315 <vagrantc> i have no intention of rail-roading anything.
@1126669345 <{gate}> I think we are a bit off topic here
@1126669350 <WormRunner> could be
@1126669354 <tymp> skippy : no, just i expect vagrantc has thought about this more than the rest of us
@1126669357 <skippy> are there any actions to be taken, here?
@1126669359 <stillflame> skippy: right, we need to decide what balance of work and options we want.  vagrantc: are you only capable of handling one installer cd?  if so, we need to decide what cd would best serve all freegeeks right now.
@1126669382 <tymp> stillflame : i intend to get up to snuff on it in oct
@1126669394 <stillflame> okay then, all of us: how many cds can we maintain?
@1126669435 <tymp> .. i really think this will all make sense if we have some discussion about the intended purpose(s)
@1126669452 <vagrantc> it is not impossible to make two CD images, but the mostcrude test cycle of each CD build takes 4-8 hours.  i don't want to double that.
@1126669467 <tymp> ah!
@1126669478 <stillflame> tymp: yeah, i agree.  i think we should ignore making more cds until we have things we're sure we want to add to the cds
@1126669485 <vagrantc> so someone else can do it, and i will happily help them get up to speed with simple-cdd to do it.
@1126669495 <{gate}> columbus plans on testing these things too.  curned out two on sunday and tested both.
@1126669499 <tymp> and it's quicker to do on real hardware
@1126669514 <tymp> than emulated
@1126669520 <vagrantc> tymp: but makes a lot of CD coasters.
@1126669523 <stillflame> vagrantc: can you commit to making some sort of documentation on how to do that build cycle?
@1126669534 <vagrantc> stillflame: sure!
@1126669536 <tymp> vagrantc : use rewritables
@1126669543 <skippy> rewritable CDs should prevent coasters.
@1126669550 <tymp> jinx!
@1126669554 <skippy> darnit!
@1126669557 <tymp> heh
@1126669565 <vagrantc> tymp: i don't have access to any CD burners
@1126669584 <skippy> commit: take to the distro list the question of objectivesfor CD images.
@1126669585 <stillflame> vagrantc: freegeek.pdx would happily donate one
@1126669591 <tymp> vagrantc : nor a spare box, i assumed - was thinking, here'show others can help
@1126669609 <vagrantc> stillflame: i will soon be too mobile to lug around extra hardware.
@1126669614 <stillflame> mmm
@1126669639 <tymp> stillflame : grant vagrantc a new laptop w/ burner :)
@1126669649 <WormRunner> yeah!
@1126669653 <vagrantc> so it sounds like a lot of this discussion might be better had on the list?
@1126669654 <stillflame> that's possible
@1126669655 <skippy> who else has commitments for this, before we move on?
@1126669668 [vagrantc] ACTION committed to something ... ?
@1126669680 <tymp> we have fifteen minutes, and we haven't checked in on past commitments
@1126669687 <stillflame> vagrantc: docs on freekbox3 build cycle
@1126669704 <vagrantc> commit: document freekbox3 installer CD build cycle
@1126669715 <skippy> item 2e) SVN
@1126669734 <skippy> status report from PDX?
@1126669735 <tymp> i am concerned we aren't going to go over past commitments
@1126669747 <tymp> can we do that quickly?
@1126669753 <vagrantc> tymp: there is considerable overlap with existing topics
@1126669760 <stillflame> svn server is currently being put into the dmz, after which it will be accessable globally.  still some configuration issues to work out with buildbot and such.
@1126669775 <tymp> vagrantc : but to have it in one place
@1126669783 <tymp> stillflame : eta?
@1126669788 <vagrantc> tymp: i think there will be time.
@1126669792 <{gate}> so when can we start getting accounts
@1126669801 <stillflame> i'll work on it all tomorrow night, and i think that will be enough.
@1126669825 <tymp> well, since we started... meho?
@1126669837 <tymp> oh.. that's real old
@1126669851 <tymp> oh, i'm looking at the wrong agenda
@1126669852 <vagrantc> ?
@1126669866 <tymp> gate?
@1126669879 <stillflame> tymp: hold on while i finish with svn
@1126669885 <tymp> ah, sorry
@1126669896 <stillflame> it will be set up for both webdav and svn+ssh, and i'll need to get login info for everyone
@1126669919 <stillflame> trac is installed, and will need to be configured for each project hosted
@1126669922 <{gate}> so that means u want our pub keys
@1126669926 <stillflame> {gate}: right
@1126669961 [tymp] ACTION apologizes for being on another planed for a moment
@1126669964 <stillflame> if people send things to me now, i can add them in once things are up and tell everyone about it.
@1126669990 <stillflame> so carryover commitment for me on svn
@1126670006 <stillflame> COMMIT: finish svn, add user access (either ssh or webdav)
@1126670026 <stillflame> oh, and i need to remember to set up ssl certs
@1126670034 <skippy> okay.  previous commitments.
@1126670040 <vagrantc> stillflame: including anonymous access?
@1126670069 [tymp] ACTION meant "planet"
@1126670085 <skippy> meho: popcon.  still pending.  gate:  setup fb3-gnome packages -- in process.  stillflame: request for coordinator; unnecessary now.
@1126670092 <skippy> errr, not meho; me.  sorry.
@1126670102 <stillflame> vagrantc: anon is working, yeah
@1126670110 <{gate}> yup, thats the status of the gnome package.
@1126670121 <skippy> vagrantc: post about new "official" fb3 packages; post about restructuring.  document reprepro.
@1126670128 <stillflame> skippy: and i did it over email, i think.
@1126670131 <vagrantc> flaked on all accounts.
@1126670149 <vagrantc> we kind of discussed the main issues here for the packaging/restructuring.
@1126670151 <stillflame> we all read the zen paper, though
@1126670154 [stillflame] ACTION applauds us.
@1126670163 <skippy> tymp: media player on wiki?
@1126670182 <tymp> no.  flaked.  but also, i don't know if that's the right place for it
@1126670208 <tymp> i can make a stub for documenting options, but it really seems like a discussion topic
@1126670209 <WormRunner> Is that a discussion of the relative merits?
@1126670215 <tymp> yes
@1126670229 <WormRunner> wiki can be a good place then
@1126670230 <vagrantc> maybe distro list?
@1126670238 <tymp> vagrantc : yeah
@1126670239 [vagrantc] ACTION hates discussions on wikis
@1126670248 <tymp> yes, it's not really suitable
@1126670252 <skippy> the list better ensures that I at least will answer.
@1126670256 <WormRunner> vagrantc: ok, then on the list
@1126670285 <tymp> but the wiki can be good for distilling the discussion - if that's desirable
@1126670297 <WormRunner> yes.  I can commit to that part
@1126670315 <vagrantc> sounds good.
@1126670317 <tymp> okay, given to WormRunner
@1126670321 <skippy> any final business?
@1126670328 <tymp> next meeting
@1126670345 <skippy> the 27th
@1126670347 <tymp> agenda deadline? facilitator?
@1126670402 <tymp> i'll facilitate, and have a rough agenda up by next tues, ifno one else does it
@1126670407 <tymp> k?
@1126670416 <skippy> deadline should be the friday before the meeting, methinks, at the latest.
@1126670436 <tymp> that sound good, at the latest
@1126670448 <vagrantc> tymp: i think commitments maybe should come before on-going issues, in the future (it was my bad organization that started the trend)
@1126670462 <tymp> yes, makes sense.  np
@1126670479 <vagrantc> and if we've got tons of extra time, we can always agreeto add new items :)
@1126670535 <skippy> okay... last chance to say anything on the record...
@1126670556 <tymp> is there an after-party? ;p
@1126670558 <skippy> </meeting>
@1126670573 <{gate}> crap
@1126670577 <tymp> thanks you all
@1126670581 <{gate}> I mean its bed time
@1126670584 <{gate}> later
@1126670590 <tymp> {gate} : cheers
@1126670591 <skippy> g'night {gate}
@1126670591 <vagrantc> tymp: what was the thing you wanted to discuss if we hadextra time?
@1126670600 <skippy> communication
@1126670602 <tymp> "communication"
@1126670617 <vagrantc> that's where things usually break down, yes.
@1126670693 <tymp> actually, the thing in my mind was minor/simple: it can be appropriate to have off-list discussion - if it is specific ... workgroup discussion.  eg, i plan to mail you and WormRunner on the .. whatever that was we agreed to work on and document thing
@1126670733 <vagrantc> package repository building?
@1126670740 <tymp> though, your policy of encouraging on-list discussion is good - and i think clearly things fall off the list by accident and need to be nudged back on sometimes
@1126670751 <tymp> yes, that should be it
@1126670796 <tymp> but wonder if there's a way to talk about it as a broader topic too "how to improve communications (on an ongoing basis)"
@1126670810 <vagrantc> it's important to not over-whelm the list with lots of information, but at the same time, i think it's even more important to keep everything documented and accessible.
@1126670841 <tymp> maybe there could be some known system of subject line codes..
@1126670850 <tymp> to make it easy to filter
@1126670864 <tymp> like "workgroup: x"
@1126670866 <vagrantc> i think people should just use meaningful subjects.
@1126670881 <vagrantc> we all could probably improve that.
@1126670890 <tymp> shouldcouldwould :)
@1126670902 <vagrantc> and maybe including the working group in the title is part of that ...
@1126670918 <WormRunner> being willing to change subjects too -- A (was C)
@1126670925 [vagrantc] ACTION nods
@1126670947 <tymp> and you could say "hi, welcome to blabla, you may want to ignore emails with "signifier" in the subject.."
@1126670963 <tymp> "..while you get acquainted"
@1126670998 <tymp> WormRunner : truely
@1126671005 <vagrantc> well, i need to go harvest, divvy up, and distribute food tomorrow :)
@1126671014 <skippy> good night.
@1126671017 <tymp> cool.  enjoy.
@1126671039 <tymp> it *feels* late here.  charms of insomnia.
@1126671048 <WormRunner> yeah, I need to head off as well.
@1126671064 <tymp> thanks much for coming WormRunner
@1126671069 <tymp> !
@1126671072 <WormRunner> my pleasure
@1126671117 <tymp> stillflame : were you posting a log?  i'll put a summary up
@1126671129 <tymp> ... pretty easy since we followed the agenda so closely
@1126671133 <stillflame> i will
@1126671143 <stillflame> COMMIT: post log
@1126671145 <stillflame> =:)
@1126671193 <tymp> commit : post summary :)
@1126671254 [meho] ACTION commits to attend next meeting
@1126672960 <stillflame> yay!  svn.freegeek.org is up-ish.
@1126672970 [stillflame] ACTION wishes ferm were installed on our firewall