User:Skippy/20050913

@1126664213 <skippy> okay -- it's about that time. @1126664222 <tymp> ..something for future agenda items too? agenda: @1126664229 [stillflame] ACTION nods. @1126664247 <skippy> check in. Who's present. @1126664270 <skippy> skippy, freegeek columbus. @1126664275 <tymp> hi, rob here in olympia.. @1126664298 <vagrantc> i'm here, but i haven't had a lot of time to work on distro ... i'm part of freegeek at large :) @1126664302 <gate> greg, columbus @1126664306 <stillflame> i'm coming out of freegeek portland oregon @1126664310 <romdos> dave, pdx @1126664327 [stillflame] ACTION pokes WormRunner @1126664336 <skippy> has everyone reviewed the agenda? Any last minute changes/ additions ? @1126664338 <WormRunner> michael, portland fg @1126664363 [vagrantc] ACTION notices that the agenda is in the topic for this channel @1126664402 <tymp> skippy : i reviewed it, would say go with it .. @1126664412 [stillflame] ACTION is good @1126664418 <skippy> first item: unfinished biz. @1126664423 <skippy> 1a) FB3 packaging. @1126664461 <skippy> who wants to speak about that? @1126664465 <tymp> ..not sure whether the listed items are that relevant at this moment.. @1126664482 <tymp> maybe more important is the recent distro conversation between vagrantc and gate @1126664496 <tymp> is that the same topic? @1126664505 <vagrantc> i can talk about packaging, if we want to talk about it now. @1126664511 <tymp> oi @1126664515 <gate> sounds fun @1126664526 <skippy> go ahead, vagrantc @1126664528 <vagrantc> tymp: i would say it's a third topic on that theme, but it's also a new item @1126664537 [tymp] ACTION nods @1126664566 <vagrantc> so, i want to get new "official" freekbox3 packages, since there have been a lot of changes in cvs not present in the released packages (0.1.2) @1126664582 <vagrantc> i need some people to test new packages, and ideally folks from freegeek portland. @1126664589 <vagrantc> that's the first item. @1126664601 <gate> sounds like a good idea, release before we break it @1126664624 <tymp> is there any procedure established for getting the packages updated? @1126664627 <vagrantc> it would ease the CD building considerably ... any takers? @1126664635 <tymp> i mean, for getting agreement to take action on that? @1126664654 <tymp> vagrantc : you're asking for someone to *do* it? @1126664667 <stillflame> vagrantc: i can offer to have available users try out installer disks. @1126664680 <stillflame> provided there's an iso i can burn from @1126664682 <vagrantc> tymp: i can build the packages, or help someone build the packages, but i need someone to test the packages. @1126664702 <WormRunner> I can do an install or two and see how it goes @1126664709 <skippy> is there a defined testing criteria / process? @1126664718 <vagrantc> not that i'm aware of. @1126664745 <skippy> is such a thing necessary? @1126664752 <tymp> perhaps its second nature to those in pdx? @1126664753 <skippy> What constitutes "testing" ? @1126664766 <tymp> yes, i'm not clear either @1126664783 <vagrantc> probably go through the QC process ? @1126664797 <WormRunner> yeah. for start @1126664800 <stillflame> okay @1126664812 <vagrantc> maybe have someone who's been a teacher to run through a"class" with it? @1126664824 <stillflame> vagrantc: adoption teacher? @1126664838 <vagrantc> stillflame: yeah, and build teachers too, probably. @1126664865 <skippy> sorry for being obtuse, but does this mean that Oly and CMH are unable to help test? @1126664871 <stillflame> WormRunner: can you try to pull an adoption teacher inthat? @1126664896 <WormRunner> sure. and I have been doing some of that myself @1126664908 <vagrantc> anyone who wants to test can give input, but since portland relies on it crucially, i think it's crucial to have testers there. @1126664921 <tymp> tangent : i'm going to set about polling for feedback/approval of the gui changes i made... a procedure or suggestions how best to do this would help @1126664926 <stillflame> okay, COMMIT: to get tested a freekbox3 package release @1126664941 <skippy> but if there's no dcoumented test process, how can we bestparticipate? @1126664942 <stillflame> tymp: would the distro RT work? @1126664971 <stillflame> skippy: ah, right. i can offer up slightly outdated QC instructions. @1126664986 <skippy> stillflame: that would help. please do. @1126664988 <vagrantc> skippy: eyeball it up, see if anything is obviously broken ... walk through the adoption class outline, do build QC process ... @1126665008 <vagrantc> that's a start. @1126665010 <stillflame> COMMIT: post instructions to pdx QC process. @1126665015 <tymp> stillflame : yes. i'm also planning to spam adoption-teachers, build, and something @1126665040 <skippy> next item: 1b) new images @1126665065 <vagrantc> skippy: could you clarify? @1126665094 <skippy> vagrantc: "building new freekbox3 packages". @1126665113 <vagrantc> oh, i thought that was what we just covered ? @1126665131 <skippy> okay. Item 1c) mini-dinstall / reprepro / hand-rolled @1126665148 <vagrantc> again, i put it on the agenda, so i'll summarize @1126665178 <vagrantc> basically, it would be helpful to have a more standard package repository format @1126665202 <vagrantc> so that tools such as debpartial-mirror and reprepro canmore easily mirror our freekbox3 package archive @1126665226 <stillflame> what's the cost of doing so? @1126665231 <vagrantc> our current archive is at http://web.freegeek.org/freekbox3 @1126665264 <vagrantc> stillflame: just need to agree on a process for buildingthe archive, and learn different commands. @1126665323 <vagrantc> mini-dinstall would be most useful for developers makingexperimental releases and cvs builds, reprepro would be best for standard archive format for our released packages, and our hand-rolled one could be as good asreprepro, but more flexible ... but it would require writing it. @1126665326 <stillflame> so we just need to choose between those three mentioned? @1126665338 [stillflame] ACTION withdraws his last comment @1126665344 <gate> by hand is to much work @1126665351 <tymp> vagrantc : what do you think is best? @1126665376 <vagrantc> gate: "by-hand" means writing a very simple 5-15 line script to do it, and i already have most of it written for the lessdisks project @1126665414 <gate> ok so thats not as bad then, I though u ment copy files and then create packages.gz @1126665431 <vagrantc> tymp: reprepro might be the easiest to start with, but it likes to delete old packages, whereas i would like to keep them around. @1126665453 <tymp> vagrantc : so you are not sure? seems like no one else is either @1126665475 <gate> reprepro sounds bad to me @1126665481 <vagrantc> mini-dinstall is the easiest, but the archive format isn't really any better. @1126665483 [WormRunner] ACTION expresses his ignorance of these matters @1126665493 <vagrantc> a backported version of reprepro might also satisfy our needs. @1126665503 <vagrantc> but then we've got to deal with a backport ... @1126665521 <WormRunner> is reprepo modifiable easily? @1126665535 <skippy> is one demonstrably better than the others, even if it still has shortcomings? @1126665539 <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's written in C ... so i'd say no. @1126665544 <gate> if we have to deal with packports whats wrong with the hand meathod @1126665545 <WormRunner> ok @1126665582 <vagrantc> skippy: i guess i'm a little inclined towards hand-rolled scripts ... @1126665599 <tymp> if we said hand-rolled, what would be a resonable deadline to have that? @1126665617 <gate> does apt-move or any other tools help with it @1126665636 <tymp> ie, how urgent vs time required and available @1126665641 <vagrantc> the exact tool isn't even that important, in my opinion ... i guess it's more an issue of process- how do we decide what goes into the package repository, who does it, etc. @1126665665 <stillflame> what's the importance of serving up old package versions? @1126665673 <vagrantc> tymp: i could get a functional archive working in a matter of days with the hand-rolled method. @1126665694 <vagrantc> stillflame: historical relevence, easy to revert if we broke something badly @1126665707 <gate> all the stable releases should stay and maybe an auto build after a cvs commit @1126665714 <skippy> can we rsync or manually copy old packaes in some way? @1126665737 <vagrantc> we could use a method that uses both mini-dinstall and some other method ... @1126665765 [tymp] ACTION really has no investment yet in this issue @1126665810 <skippy> so, can we take action, or do we need to discuss on the list some more? @1126665823 <vagrantc> would anyone want to work with me on these issues, getting it done, getting it documented, and just giving us the ok to just do what we want? @1126665828 <vagrantc> within reason :) @1126665858 <WormRunner> I would say if vagrantc has an idea of how to get it done and wants to, we could go with his hand-rolled idea @1126665859 <tymp> i *want* to, but can't commit this month @1126665863 <gate> I would but It will have to hold off till Oct @1126665876 <tymp> yay, October! @1126665881 <tymp> (me too) @1126665892 <vagrantc> ideally, i'd like to have it done by next meeting ... @1126665893 <tymp> i second WormRunner @1126665907 <tymp> vagrantc : say "commit"? :)) @1126665922 <vagrantc> i haven't found a co-conspirator yet @1126665930 <skippy> commit: allow vagrantc to hand-roll packages until a better method is devised. @1126665947 <tymp> what investment will the co-conspiritor need to make? @1126666009 <vagrantc> maybe they get to do the documentation- how to put packages into the repository, mainly. @1126666028 <vagrantc> so that the documentation works for someone inexperienced with these matters already @1126666053 <tymp> i can commit 4 hours before next meeting to that .. ? @1126666070 <tymp> .. i think i am inexperienced enough :) @1126666076 <vagrantc> i can just do it, and hope that my documentation is goodenough @1126666089 <vagrantc> and if anyone wants to help, they would be welcome to @1126666111 <tymp> commit : spend 4 hours over next two weeks helping document putting packages in repository @1126666112 <WormRunner> I would be happy to help document, as long as I can poke you enough where I fail to understand @1126666136 <vagrantc> sounds great! @1126666147 <skippy> okay; sounds like consensus to me. Vagrant will prepare packages, and WormRunner and tymp will assist documentation. @1126666176 <tymp> is communication on the agenda? @1126666179 <skippy> next section: on-going business. @1126666183 <tymp> is communication on the agenda? @1126666188 <skippy> no, tymp, it's not. @1126666195 <tymp> i'd like to parking-lot that @1126666204 <skippy> what does that mean? @1126666210 <tymp> (ie, if we get through the rest of the agenda...) @1126666222 <WormRunner> =table @1126666226 <skippy> ok. if we get through. @1126666226 <WormRunner> I presume @1126666232 <tymp> ha, that's simpler @1126666237 <skippy> item 2a) user-oriented-design. @1126666246 <skippy> has everyone read the Zini paper? @1126666255 <gate> yup @1126666256 <tymp> yes. @1126666264 <skippy> any questions? @1126666265 <vagrantc> re-read it earlier today :) @1126666274 <tymp> skippy : can you estimate time we should spend on this item? @1126666298 <skippy> tymp: it's an on-going agenda item, so I'm comfortable giving this 5 - 10 minutes tops. @1126666310 <skippy> does anyone have any questions re: zini ? @1126666337 <tymp> well... re this project of doing useroriented design.. @1126666357 <stillflame> does moving toward more user-centric design imply thatwe would move to distro to debian-np? @1126666361 <tymp> i'd like to see some timeline @1126666372 <stillflame> move *the* distro @1126666388 <tymp> that seems like something that's worth considering @1126666392 <vagrantc> stillflame: not at all. @1126666403 <vagrantc> stillflame: it is a totally separate issue. @1126666403 <skippy> stillflame: I think debian-np is more "business user" oriented. @1126666405 <tymp> or, perhaps "move" is too strong @1126666410 <stillflame> okay, thanks. @1126666422 <skippy> tymp: timeline for this in what way? @1126666432 <tymp> goals, dates @1126666434 <vagrantc> user-oriented-design is just techniques to inform our design decisions @1126666438 <tymp> 1 month, 1 year @1126666444 <WormRunner> a way of thinking @1126666445 <tymp> i think it's a long-term project @1126666469 <vagrantc> it is a life-long project, but i see some specific goals: @1126666471 <WormRunner> I think this is a way of thinking we just need to never forget @1126666482 <vagrantc> create a persona for each of the freegeek categories @1126666497 <vagrantc> trim the adoption program personae down to 1 or 2 personae @1126666508 <WormRunner> 3 @1126666535 <tymp> does anyone else think : there are kinda two projects here 1) bottom-up, working with what we have and making it cleaner, 2) top-down, thinking about what it should be long-term @1126666541 <stillflame> so this is something that the adoption teachers shouldcontribute heavily to @1126666544 <vagrantc> exactly how many is up for debate, but the fewer the better, or we'll have a very muddy design. @1126666551 <WormRunner> ok @1126666563 <vagrantc> stillflame: absolutely! @1126666564 <WormRunner> stillflame: yes, I think so @1126666588 <WormRunner> and support @1126666597 <vagrantc> i think the most appropriate areas of expertise are adoption teachers and tech support. @1126666597 <tymp> stillflame : yea, and feedback systems that we hope to buildin would contribute @1126666626 <tymp> i think there's a meta-issue with design that requires a different approach @1126666632 <stillflame> okay, i think a physical meeting is needed to really start these personae off, so WormRunner, romdos, meho and/or i need to get a meeting organized with teachers here to define them. @1126666632 <tymp> it's not very technical at all @1126666695 <WormRunner> commit: I will email the adoptionteachers list @1126666697 <skippy> I've loosely fleshed out what I perceive to be an FGCMH user. @1126666703 <vagrantc> hopefully, the various freegeeks will be able to make use of the same personae, but there may be differences to consider. @1126666711 <stillflame> WormRunner: and set up a meeting to define personae @1126666716 <tymp> the ideal will be one persona @1126666724 <tymp> * to have one persona @1126666739 <vagrantc> but the ideal is impossible, by the very diversity of freegeek. @1126666747 <gate> I don't see the persona as that specific that we could not all get buy with one @1126666766 <stillflame> skippy: good. would it be okay for the meeting to tryto absorb that persona into another? @1126666772 <WormRunner> I see several distinct types of users @1126666782 <vagrantc> it should largely be a "sterotypical" user- but defined enough to get a feel for their personality @1126666790 <skippy> gate: Maybe not at the moment, but I can envision, say, anHispanic FreeGeek initiative, that might have different goals from FGCMH @1126666832 <skippy> stillflame: you folks are welcome to build upon my start; but I'd like to keep a separate FGCMH persona, so that we don't mis-direct our efforts once we start deploying systems. @1126666839 <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's likely that freegeek just has a hard design. @1126666841 <gate> well yes but as it currently stands I see maybe 2 at most @1126666875 <tymp> i hope we can keep an open mind to agreeing on one @1126666890 <vagrantc> skippy: well, once you start deploying systems, you may need to create a persona from scratch and forget about the old one ... @1126666932 <skippy> vagrantc: perhaps. But that would happen whether FG/PDX absorbs our persona or not. @1126666946 <skippy> gate: did you review my persona sketch ? @1126666960 <gate> ya @1126666961 <vagrantc> skippy: definitely. and if you're lucky, you'll realisethat the other freegeek persona fit you just fine :) @1126666965 <gate> I read it a few days back @1126667020 <skippy> vagrantc: please excuse my skepticism. You may be completely correct; but you folks have a lot of inertia behind a lot of what you've done, and we're in a position to enjoy a fresh start with no preconceived notions.I'd like to use that as much as possible. @1126667021 <gate> seems a lot like the rest, just a different background but computer uses were about the same between them @1126667062 <skippy> anyway, we're straying from the task at hand. @1126667069 <tymp> skippy : i think your skepticism is sensible. but the hope would be.. @1126667084 <vagrantc> skippy: of course. only time will give a real idea if any of the personae are good. @1126667130 <tymp> that's more than 10 minutes @1126667133 <skippy> it seems to me that the general consensus for the currently defined personae are that they are task-oriented _users_, and not tweakers or customizers. @1126667145 <tymp> yes @1126667151 <gate> as stated before get the teachers/tech support in here to tell us what really needs done @1126667172 <vagrantc> i think it is important to note that all of the existingadoption personae were created by a single person. @1126667181 <skippy> commit: get feedback from build teachers. (I think someone said that already) @1126667188 <WormRunner> yes @1126667197 <gate> just restating so we can move on @1126667204 <vagrantc> skippy: though that would largely be for a build persona, not the adoption persona @1126667205 <WormRunner> and adoption teachers and tech support @1126667240 <WormRunner> so now that we have committed to a process for that, what is next @1126667252 <skippy> next item: 2b) prognosis @1126667279 <skippy> which I take to include long-term outlook, objectives, andtimeline @1126667286 <tymp> we're dead in 6 months @1126667298 <WormRunner> ? @1126667304 <skippy> are you being silly, tymp ? @1126667306 <tymp> just kidding @1126667308 <tymp> sorry @1126667309 <skippy> okay. @1126667332 <gate> I was going to say, I just say the doc and she did not tell me this @1126667337 <WormRunner> tech support people have no sense of humor. don't confuse us @1126667345 <tymp> lol @1126667352 <skippy> I think the addition / collaboration of new FGs will help many aspects of the project(s) overall, but it will also slow things down a fai rbit. @1126667390 <skippy> we don't have any real milestones for the distro project. @1126667423 <skippy> does anyone have any comments before moving on? @1126667425 <tymp> yeah, seems like there is a fundamental shift? @1126667425 <vagrantc> well, the freekbox3 is an already mostly finished milestone- many systems are already out there being used! @1126667457 <tymp> i think skippy means, the project as non-pdx-ers know it @1126667466 <WormRunner> and other than some minor stuff, they are working pretty well @1126667470 <skippy> I think it's fair to say that the FB3 is an FB/PDX-specific success; and not directly transferrable to start-ups @1126667478 <vagrantc> the gnome fork definitely adds a lot of complication, but is leading to a better infrastructure. @1126667490 <tymp> but, i do want to the non-locals to not lose sight of all the work pdx has done @1126667519 <skippy> PDX has a lot of investment, and it feels to me that they take a lot for granted. @1126667546 <skippy> that's neither good nor bad, by the way -- it's just a statement of fact. @1126667552 <vagrantc> skippy: any specific examples? @1126667554 <tymp> it's to be expected, i think @1126667555 <skippy> errr.. perception. @1126667568 <tymp> 05(skippy05): i agree, on the whole @1126667587 <tymp> well, it is beginning to move - @1126667593 <skippy> vagrantc: this discussion shows several examples, vagrantc, as folks talk about build and adoption and teaching. @1126667597 <tymp> i think there has not been real motivation to open it up @1126667616 <skippy> We have no such hierarchy / definition, so we don't have the same kinds of approach to issues. @1126667620 <vagrantc> skippy: definitely. @1126667640 <tymp> vagrantc : an example is the installation process - which until recently was assumed to be based on cloning @1126667672 <tymp> ("assumed" - in practice) @1126667704 <WormRunner> and there has been motion for a long time toward a more standard install @1126667714 <vagrantc> basically, freegeek portland had a lot of stuff that basically worked, but is not necessarily easy to replicate or maintain over the long-term, and coordinating with other groups is forcing the project into a good direction. @1126667719 <skippy> decision making seems to be "the PDX way, or the highway",to be blunt. @1126667728 <WormRunner> good grief @1126667747 <tymp> skippy : i think that is a mis-perception. but i have had that perception too. @1126667784 <vagrantc> well, the meeting time is portland-centric ... @1126667787 <tymp> i think the central problem is the ease of misunderstanding,rather than any specific inattention or disregard, etc @1126667804 <skippy> tymp: that may be the bulk of it. @1126667814 <skippy> anyway, do we have any more comments re: prognosis? @1126667829 <vagrantc> basically, any group is going to be resistant to changing something that is basically working for them. @1126667835 <tymp> i think it's important to respect the special "ownership" ofportland over freegeek - if that word is not too ugly @1126667869 <tymp> vagrantc : it's just social inertia @1126667878 <WormRunner> It seems to me that there is a great deal of movement by portland, and that these meetings are evidence of that @1126667892 <vagrantc> tymp: it's more than merely social- it is technical inertia, also. @1126667919 <vagrantc> WormRunner: it feels to me that portland is less actively involved, at the moment, actually. @1126667921 <tymp> vagrantc : by 'just', i mean, just inertia - but i take it back @1126667942 <skippy> WormRunner: I hope you're not offended by my comment. I'm not trying to cause trouble, or whine. I'm trying to be honest, because this is something about which I'm passionate (as I assume are all of you). @1126667971 <skippy> are there any action items for this prognosis issue? @1126667974 <vagrantc> skippy: again, i'd be curious about more of the specifics ? @1126667991 <skippy> vagrantc: I suggest we put this on hold for the mailing list. @1126667994 <WormRunner> skippy: I am troubled by what I see as an adversarialapproach @1126667998 <vagrantc> skippy: sounds perfect. @1126668027 <WormRunner> skippy: yes @1126668032 <skippy> WormRunner: feel free to expand your concerns on the mailing list. I don't think I'm being adversarial. @1126668038 <skippy> item 2c) popcon server. @1126668050 <skippy> This was my item. I've taken no action on it. @1126668062 <skippy> Commit: install and test a popcon server before next meeting. @1126668090 <tymp> sweet. that was quick! @1126668091 <skippy> item 2d) multi-profile CD. @1126668118 <vagrantc> haven't done much on this- last CD build was 699MB, including a lot of the freekbox3-gnome trimming. @1126668129 <tymp> what's the date on that? @1126668138 <skippy> vagrantc: ought there be a distinction between a "user" multi-profile CD, and a "FreeGeek on a disc" multi-profile CD? @1126668142 <vagrantc> september 3rd. @1126668155 <gate> I made some non release CDs this week which seemed to work allright but I have not gotten back to them since sunday @1126668170 <vagrantc> skippy: maybe. ideally we can fit it all on one CD. @1126668171 <tymp> the 8/23 one has some problems - but i didn't feel the need so much to comment, as i'm thinking it's still ... alpha stage? @1126668192 <tymp> vagrantc : did you get my comment about the broken cd link on the wiki? @1126668227 <vagrantc> skippy: there is so much overlap, i don't see the advantage of the extra overhead required for two CDs. @1126668238 <vagrantc> tymp: nope. @1126668242 <tymp> in general : what is the intended product of work on multi-installer cd? @1126668250 <skippy> vagrantc: I disagree with the need to fit it all on one CD. Many users are not likely to be interested in replicating an FG for themselves. It seems a better investment of our time to provide users with a very focused CD; and give interested parties the extra tools to do what they need to make an FG. @1126668257 <gate> ya, the only reason to go two CD is if the packages grow toomuch @1126668308 <tymp> skippy : that is rather what i'd been thinking @1126668312 <WormRunner> I have thought it would be good to have a basic CD buta package to install an expanded set of relevant packages @1126668312 <vagrantc> skippy: i guess we disagree on what's a better investment of time. @1126668315 <stillflame> we currently need to install a few different set of packages: laptops, baseservers and freekboxes. @1126668325 <gate> The first time a real package comes up for dropping or adding and size become a consern make two CDs, its pretty easy with simple-ccd @1126668326 <stillflame> we = fg.pdx @1126668346 <vagrantc> gate: we're already riding on the edge of a 700MB image,though. @1126668353 <gate> I know @1126668377 <tymp> vagrantc : i still don't see clearly why it's desirable to have a single cd image with all the profiles @1126668398 <vagrantc> of course, according to user-oriented design, we should have a separate CD for every persona :) @1126668405 <tymp> lol @1126668420 <gate> less coasters laying around @1126668429 <tymp> but there should be one persona, so, for each of one ;) @1126668446 <tymp> gate : laying around *where* @1126668454 <gate> my coffee table @1126668454 <vagrantc> tymp: well, i don't want to have to maintain two separate images if 90% of it is overlap. @1126668456 <skippy> perhaps the FG-on-a-disc could even be a mini-CD? @1126668463 <tymp> will portland need to use this in-house? @1126668473 <tymp> skippy : business-card @1126668482 <skippy> tymp: sure, or thar. @1126668485 <skippy> *that @1126668514 <WormRunner> the CD is useful even if portland continued to clone @1126668528 <skippy> WormRunner: can you elaborate? @1126668545 <gate> vagrantc: as long as we maintain good simple-ccd profiles maintaining them is pretty easy @1126668549 <tymp> WormRunner : i'm wondering who is the intended user? @1126668568 <WormRunner> We grant boxes to people and organizations who may notbe in portland and at some point need to reinstall @1126668574 <vagrantc> gate: it's still more maintainence, and i would like to stick them all on one CD. but if we can't, oh well. @1126668578 <tymp> i think the cd's highest value would be... @1126668586 <tymp> WormRunner : exactly what i'm thinking @1126668590 <WormRunner> coming back to town is a real hassle @1126668609 <gate> I think the aim is one CD but if we can't fit it then o well @1126668611 <tymp> i think reinstall is the highest value of the cd @1126668631 <WormRunner> and one cd would be best if at all possible @1126668667 <skippy> have any packages been marked for removal from the original FreekBox3 build, to squeeze out some extra room? @1126668674 <WormRunner> even if it means giving up wesnoth ;-) @1126668678 <vagrantc> has anyone actually used two CDs with debian? it's kindof a pain, honestly. @1126668681 <skippy> or is the current FB3 locked-in, package wise? @1126668684 <tymp> i think aside from reinstallation without ethernet, the cd will not be hugely needed @1126668696 [vagrantc] ACTION does the give up wesnoth dance! @1126668701 <tymp> vagrantc : but you can assume broadband @1126668702 <WormRunner> lol @1126668714 <vagrantc> tymp: that, is a very stupid assumtion. @1126668725 <tymp> vagrantc : how come? @1126668736 <WormRunner> very few of our adopters have broadbanc @1126668738 <WormRunner> d @1126668748 <vagrantc> tymp: well, even if you have broadband, installing from a CD is *way* faster than a basic DSL connection. @1126668762 <tymp> vagrantc : but very few of your adopters will need to install lessdisks @1126668767 <skippy> when I said earlier "two CDs", I didn't mean a CD set, a la Debian install CDs. I meant two standalone CDs. @1126668790 <skippy> one CD for users, from which they could rebuild their system. @1126668792 <vagrantc> skippy: well, for an application server, nearly all of the freekbox3 packages are useful. @1126668798 <tymp> vagrantc : what i mean is, the multi-install is not needed by dialup users @1126668814 <vagrantc> tymp: of course not. @1126668818 <skippy> one CD for FG folks, who want to have a terminal server, and FGdb, and thorough documentation, etc @1126668915 <skippy> vagrantc: We don't use an application server (yet), so theutiilty of bundling that on a CD for users is lost on me. @1126668964 <tymp> .. so the overall objective is ill-defined @1126668982 <skippy> tymp: I'd concur with that. @1126668985 <tymp> ugh, too many variables @1126668993 <vagrantc> skippy: and having a couple extra menu items is totally unacceptable? @1126669005 <tymp> but i am so happy vagrantc has been working on it! @1126669021 <skippy> vagrantc: if the target user is not intended to use those menu options, they have no business being present if it's in our control to decide. @1126669070 <vagrantc> skippy: i guess, if you want to maintain a separate CD that only has freekbox3 packages, you are welcome to. @1126669075 [WormRunner] ACTION reserves judgement @1126669091 <vagrantc> (or freekbox3-gnome, or whatever). @1126669093 <tymp> lets step back and clarify the goals - on the list @1126669103 <skippy> well, that's a fine example of "PDX way or the high way". @1126669103 <tymp> eh, distro list @1126669139 <vagrantc> skippy: i live in new mexico at the moment, and am interested in propegating freegeeks everywhere. @1126669151 <tymp> skippy : i think it is an example of vagrant is doing all the work so his perspective deserves a little more weight @1126669159 <WormRunner> vagrantc is a pdx refugee! @1126669169 <tymp> oh jeez ;) @1126669178 <WormRunner> tymp: I agree @1126669188 <tymp> edit: * almost all the work @1126669192 <skippy> propogating FGs is a different issue than making CDs for users. It was my understanding that it was specifically this issue that was under discussion. @1126669193 <WormRunner> lol @1126669217 <vagrantc> skippy: people building freegeeks are users. @1126669221 <tymp> skippy : everything is prapagation! @1126669224 <skippy> tymp: I'd very much like to contribute to the work, but amfinding it challenging to find the right entry vector for my current skillset. @1126669246 <tymp> skippy : i'm there too at the moment. @1126669251 <stillflame> vagrantc: are you suggesting a personae of "Freegeek Startupist"? @1126669254 <{gate}> it shoudl getter beter when we have a place to store code @1126669260 <vagrantc> skippy: as gate said, it is not difficult to create extra CD images with simple-cdd ... @1126669264 <skippy> if we're all going to simply defer to vagrant, then this entrire agenda item can be entirely excised. @1126669271 <vagrantc> stillflame: perhaps i am. @1126669292 <WormRunner> that would be an interesting persona @1126669297 <tymp> {gate} : and a good way to get folks into that - which will follow organically i spose @1126669310 <tymp> {gate} : once it's there @1126669315 <vagrantc> i have no intention of rail-roading anything. @1126669345 <{gate}> I think we are a bit off topic here @1126669350 <WormRunner> could be @1126669354 <tymp> skippy : no, just i expect vagrantc has thought about this more than the rest of us @1126669357 <skippy> are there any actions to be taken, here? @1126669359 <stillflame> skippy: right, we need to decide what balance of work and options we want. vagrantc: are you only capable of handling one installer cd? if so, we need to decide what cd would best serve all freegeeks right now. @1126669382 <tymp> stillflame : i intend to get up to snuff on it in oct @1126669394 <stillflame> okay then, all of us: how many cds can we maintain? @1126669435 <tymp> .. i really think this will all make sense if we have some discussion about the intended purpose(s) @1126669452 <vagrantc> it is not impossible to make two CD images, but the mostcrude test cycle of each CD build takes 4-8 hours. i don't want to double that. @1126669467 <tymp> ah! @1126669478 <stillflame> tymp: yeah, i agree. i think we should ignore making more cds until we have things we're sure we want to add to the cds @1126669485 <vagrantc> so someone else can do it, and i will happily help them get up to speed with simple-cdd to do it. @1126669495 <{gate}> columbus plans on testing these things too. curned out two on sunday and tested both. @1126669499 <tymp> and it's quicker to do on real hardware @1126669514 <tymp> than emulated @1126669520 <vagrantc> tymp: but makes a lot of CD coasters. @1126669523 <stillflame> vagrantc: can you commit to making some sort of documentation on how to do that build cycle? @1126669534 <vagrantc> stillflame: sure! @1126669536 <tymp> vagrantc : use rewritables @1126669543 <skippy> rewritable CDs should prevent coasters. @1126669550 <tymp> jinx! @1126669554 <skippy> darnit! @1126669557 <tymp> heh @1126669565 <vagrantc> tymp: i don't have access to any CD burners @1126669584 <skippy> commit: take to the distro list the question of objectivesfor CD images. @1126669585 <stillflame> vagrantc: freegeek.pdx would happily donate one @1126669591 <tymp> vagrantc : nor a spare box, i assumed - was thinking, here'show others can help @1126669609 <vagrantc> stillflame: i will soon be too mobile to lug around extra hardware. @1126669614 <stillflame> mmm @1126669639 <tymp> stillflame : grant vagrantc a new laptop w/ burner :) @1126669649 <WormRunner> yeah! @1126669653 <vagrantc> so it sounds like a lot of this discussion might be better had on the list? @1126669654 <stillflame> that's possible @1126669655 <skippy> who else has commitments for this, before we move on? @1126669668 [vagrantc] ACTION committed to something ... ? @1126669680 <tymp> we have fifteen minutes, and we haven't checked in on past commitments @1126669687 <stillflame> vagrantc: docs on freekbox3 build cycle @1126669704 <vagrantc> commit: document freekbox3 installer CD build cycle @1126669715 <skippy> item 2e) SVN @1126669734 <skippy> status report from PDX? @1126669735 <tymp> i am concerned we aren't going to go over past commitments @1126669747 <tymp> can we do that quickly? @1126669753 <vagrantc> tymp: there is considerable overlap with existing topics @1126669760 <stillflame> svn server is currently being put into the dmz, after which it will be accessable globally. still some configuration issues to work out with buildbot and such. @1126669775 <tymp> vagrantc : but to have it in one place @1126669783 <tymp> stillflame : eta? @1126669788 <vagrantc> tymp: i think there will be time. @1126669792 <{gate}> so when can we start getting accounts @1126669801 <stillflame> i'll work on it all tomorrow night, and i think that will be enough. @1126669825 <tymp> well, since we started... meho? @1126669837 <tymp> oh.. that's real old @1126669851 <tymp> oh, i'm looking at the wrong agenda @1126669852 <vagrantc> ? @1126669866 <tymp> gate? @1126669879 <stillflame> tymp: hold on while i finish with svn @1126669885 <tymp> ah, sorry @1126669896 <stillflame> it will be set up for both webdav and svn+ssh, and i'll need to get login info for everyone @1126669919 <stillflame> trac is installed, and will need to be configured for each project hosted @1126669922 <{gate}> so that means u want our pub keys @1126669926 <stillflame> {gate}: right @1126669961 [tymp] ACTION apologizes for being on another planed for a moment @1126669964 <stillflame> if people send things to me now, i can add them in once things are up and tell everyone about it. @1126669990 <stillflame> so carryover commitment for me on svn @1126670006 <stillflame> COMMIT: finish svn, add user access (either ssh or webdav) @1126670026 <stillflame> oh, and i need to remember to set up ssl certs @1126670034 <skippy> okay. previous commitments. @1126670040 <vagrantc> stillflame: including anonymous access? @1126670069 [tymp] ACTION meant "planet" @1126670085 <skippy> meho: popcon. still pending. gate: setup fb3-gnome packages -- in process. stillflame: request for coordinator; unnecessary now. @1126670092 <skippy> errr, not meho; me. sorry. @1126670102 <stillflame> vagrantc: anon is working, yeah @1126670110 <{gate}> yup, thats the status of the gnome package. @1126670121 <skippy> vagrantc: post about new "official" fb3 packages; post about restructuring. document reprepro. @1126670128 <stillflame> skippy: and i did it over email, i think. @1126670131 <vagrantc> flaked on all accounts. @1126670149 <vagrantc> we kind of discussed the main issues here for the packaging/restructuring. @1126670151 <stillflame> we all read the zen paper, though @1126670154 [stillflame] ACTION applauds us. @1126670163 <skippy> tymp: media player on wiki? @1126670182 <tymp> no. flaked. but also, i don't know if that's the right place for it @1126670208 <tymp> i can make a stub for documenting options, but it really seems like a discussion topic @1126670209 <WormRunner> Is that a discussion of the relative merits? @1126670215 <tymp> yes @1126670229 <WormRunner> wiki can be a good place then @1126670230 <vagrantc> maybe distro list? @1126670238 <tymp> vagrantc : yeah @1126670239 [vagrantc] ACTION hates discussions on wikis @1126670248 <tymp> yes, it's not really suitable @1126670252 <skippy> the list better ensures that I at least will answer. @1126670256 <WormRunner> vagrantc: ok, then on the list @1126670285 <tymp> but the wiki can be good for distilling the discussion - if that's desirable @1126670297 <WormRunner> yes. I can commit to that part @1126670315 <vagrantc> sounds good. @1126670317 <tymp> okay, given to WormRunner @1126670321 <skippy> any final business? @1126670328 <tymp> next meeting @1126670345 <skippy> the 27th @1126670347 <tymp> agenda deadline? facilitator? @1126670402 <tymp> i'll facilitate, and have a rough agenda up by next tues, ifno one else does it @1126670407 <tymp> k? @1126670416 <skippy> deadline should be the friday before the meeting, methinks, at the latest. @1126670436 <tymp> that sound good, at the latest @1126670448 <vagrantc> tymp: i think commitments maybe should come before on-going issues, in the future (it was my bad organization that started the trend) @1126670462 <tymp> yes, makes sense. np @1126670479 <vagrantc> and if we've got tons of extra time, we can always agreeto add new items :) @1126670535 <skippy> okay... last chance to say anything on the record... @1126670556 <tymp> is there an after-party? ;p @1126670558 <skippy> </meeting> @1126670573 <{gate}> crap @1126670577 <tymp> thanks you all @1126670581 <{gate}> I mean its bed time @1126670584 <{gate}> later @1126670590 <tymp> {gate} : cheers @1126670591 <skippy> g'night {gate} @1126670591 <vagrantc> tymp: what was the thing you wanted to discuss if we hadextra time? @1126670600 <skippy> communication @1126670602 <tymp> "communication" @1126670617 <vagrantc> that's where things usually break down, yes. @1126670693 <tymp> actually, the thing in my mind was minor/simple: it can be appropriate to have off-list discussion - if it is specific ... workgroup discussion. eg, i plan to mail you and WormRunner on the .. whatever that was we agreed to work on and document thing @1126670733 <vagrantc> package repository building? @1126670740 <tymp> though, your policy of encouraging on-list discussion is good - and i think clearly things fall off the list by accident and need to be nudged back on sometimes @1126670751 <tymp> yes, that should be it @1126670796 <tymp> but wonder if there's a way to talk about it as a broader topic too "how to improve communications (on an ongoing basis)" @1126670810 <vagrantc> it's important to not over-whelm the list with lots of information, but at the same time, i think it's even more important to keep everything documented and accessible. @1126670841 <tymp> maybe there could be some known system of subject line codes.. @1126670850 <tymp> to make it easy to filter @1126670864 <tymp> like "workgroup: x" @1126670866 <vagrantc> i think people should just use meaningful subjects. @1126670881 <vagrantc> we all could probably improve that. @1126670890 <tymp> shouldcouldwould :) @1126670902 <vagrantc> and maybe including the working group in the title is part of that ... @1126670918 <WormRunner> being willing to change subjects too -- A (was C) @1126670925 [vagrantc] ACTION nods @1126670947 <tymp> and you could say "hi, welcome to blabla, you may want to ignore emails with "signifier" in the subject.." @1126670963 <tymp> "..while you get acquainted" @1126670998 <tymp> WormRunner : truely @1126671005 <vagrantc> well, i need to go harvest, divvy up, and distribute food tomorrow :) @1126671014 <skippy> good night. @1126671017 <tymp> cool. enjoy. @1126671039 <tymp> it *feels* late here. charms of insomnia. @1126671048 <WormRunner> yeah, I need to head off as well. @1126671064 <tymp> thanks much for coming WormRunner @1126671069 <tymp> ! @1126671072 <WormRunner> my pleasure @1126671117 <tymp> stillflame : were you posting a log? i'll put a summary up @1126671129 <tymp> ... pretty easy since we followed the agenda so closely @1126671133 <stillflame> i will @1126671143 <stillflame> COMMIT: post log @1126671145 <stillflame> =:) @1126671193 <tymp> commit : post summary :) @1126671254 [meho] ACTION commits to attend next meeting @1126672960 <stillflame> yay! svn.freegeek.org is up-ish. @1126672970 [stillflame] ACTION wishes ferm were installed on our firewall