Difference between revisions of "Distro/irc20050927"

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(summarize commitments made)
 
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scott:
 
scott:
 
* install and test a popcon server before next meeting.
 
* install and test a popcon server before next meeting.
 +
** installed.  Point an HTTP-enabled popcon client to http://freegeekcolumbus.org/cgi-bin/popcon.cgi
 
* take to the distro list the question of objectives for CD images.
 
* take to the distro list the question of objectives for CD images.
 +
** http://lists.freegeek.org/pipermail/distro/2005-September/001534.html
  
 
rob:
 
rob:
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vagrant:
 
vagrant:
−
* document freekbox3 installer CD build cycle
+
* document [[Distro_CD_Builds|freekbox3 installer CD build cycle]]
 
* hand-roll package repository scripts until a better method is devised.
 
* hand-roll package repository scripts until a better method is devised.
  
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late agenda items(may not have time):
 
late agenda items(may not have time):
  
−
* late items here
+
* how is the meeting time/date (7pm, -0700) for active participants?
  
 
== log / summary ==  
 
== log / summary ==  
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=== Present ===
 
=== Present ===
 +
skippy, tymp(facil), gate, vagrantc, meho, WormRunner
  
 
=== Summary ===
 
=== Summary ===
 +
 +
commitments made:
 +
 +
[7:29pm] <vagrantc> commit: keep working on package repository options
 +
[7:30pm] <tymp> commit : keep working to help document package repository options
 +
 +
[7:30pm] <vagrantc> commit: WormRunner email the buildteachers list about build personae
 +
[7:32pm] <WormRunner> commit: WormRunner will hobnob with builders about personae
 +
 +
[8:24pm] <tymp> commit : weigh in on kde vs gnome on the distro list
 +
 +
[8:24pm] <WormRunner> commit: WormRunner will talk on the list
 +
[8:24pm] * meho commits to join the list discution on kde v gnome
 +
 +
[8:42pm] <tymp> commit : try submitting to skippy's popcon server
 +
 +
[8:43pm] <tymp> ugh, commit: i will set popcon up on fgoly's office machine
 +
 +
[8:55pm] <tymp> commit : post log
 +
 +
[8:58pm] <tymp> commit : hassle on the list for a facilitator for next meeting and agenda items
  
 
=== Full Log ===
 
=== Full Log ===
 +
<pre>7:10pm] <skippy> time to check in?
 +
[7:10pm] <vagrantc> think so, more or less.
 +
[7:11pm] <gate> here
 +
[7:12pm] <vagrantc> here. had a rough two weeks at the farm.
 +
[7:12pm] <skippy> here
 +
[7:12pm] <tymp> hi
 +
[7:12pm] <vagrantc> tymp: you had said you'd facilitate, if i remember correctly?
 +
[7:12pm] <tymp> yes
 +
[7:13pm] <tymp> i have 7:12
 +
[7:13pm] <tymp> does the agenda seem complete?
 +
[7:14pm] <vagrantc> the future meeting time is a late item, and needs approval to be added.
 +
[7:15pm] <vagrantc> i would think.
 +
[7:15pm] <tymp> i have been distracted and unable to contribute as much as i'd like the last month.  hope to be more present in oct
 +
[7:15pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: you around?
 +
[7:15pm] <tymp> i think there will be time
 +
[7:15pm] <tymp> *time for 'meeting time'
 +
[7:15pm] <vagrantc> meho: and you?
 +
[7:16pm] <tymp> well, they can read scrollback
 +
[7:17pm] <tymp> let's go over commitments of those present
 +
[7:17pm] <tymp> scott ?
 +
[7:17pm] <vagrantc> looks like skippy did both commitments.
 +
[7:17pm] <tymp> i see you're items are answered on the wiki
 +
[7:18pm] <tymp> i put in roughly four hours, and posted the summary.
 +
[7:18pm] <gate> speaking of that. vagrantc, where did u get the backported popcon
 +
[7:18pm] <skippy> Yes, I sent an email to the list that generated an underwhelming response. From that, I infer that I'm off my rocker, and the only one with a complaint.
 +
[7:18pm] <tymp> no, i think it deserves discussion. 
 +
[7:18pm] <skippy> I also set up a popcon "server", which is little more than a CGI script.
 +
[7:18pm] <tymp> i have not been able to find time to process everything and weigh in
 +
[7:18pm] <tymp> but appreciate the dialog
 +
[7:19pm] <tymp> vagrant?
 +
[7:19pm] <vagrantc> gate: i grabbed it from sid, and stuck it into a couple of my repositories
 +
[7:19pm] <gate> ok, thats what I figured
 +
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> i started documenting the CD build cycle. link in the agenda.
 +
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> didn't have a chance to work on package repository stuff much at all.
 +
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> posted
 +
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> a message to the list documenting some slightly more detailed thoughts on the various options.
 +
[7:21pm] <tymp> aye
 +
[7:21pm] Joins: WormRunner (n=earthwor@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) Clone: stillflame [8 users]
 +
[7:21pm] <tymp> hi michael, we are just checking on commitments
 +
[7:21pm] <WormRunner> hi all. sorry I am late
 +
[7:21pm] <WormRunner> I also will probably not stay the whole time
 +
[7:22pm] <tymp> meho and stillflame and Kiranu_ don't seem to be here either
 +
[7:22pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: are any of them at freegeek?
 +
[7:22pm] <WormRunner> I emailed the adoption teachers, but since I just got to it...
 +
[7:22pm] * meho walks in the door
 +
[7:22pm] <WormRunner> stillflame was, not sure if now
 +
[7:22pm] <WormRunner> I just walked in
 +
[7:23pm] <tymp> meho : read upward ?
 +
[7:23pm] <tymp> meho : we are checking commitments
 +
[7:23pm] <tymp> oh, meho had no commitments - except being here
 +
[7:24pm] <tymp> we'll ask stillflame when he gets here, then?
 +
[7:24pm] <vagrantc> who was asking the build teachers for user personae stuff?
 +
[7:24pm] <WormRunner> me
 +
[7:24pm] <vagrantc> both adoption teachers and build teachers?
 +
[7:25pm] <WormRunner> ah, no
 +
[7:25pm] <WormRunner> sorry
 +
[7:25pm] <WormRunner> stillflame maybe?
 +
[7:25pm] <vagrantc> it was unclear from the irc logs, at least to me.
 +
[7:25pm] <tymp> skippy mentioned it, no?
 +
[7:26pm] <tymp> in a commit: line
 +
[7:26pm] <vagrantc> yes.
 +
[7:26pm] <tymp> skippy : do you recall?
 +
[7:26pm] <vagrantc> but i don't think skippy was the one to take it on.
 +
[7:26pm] <meho> stillflame reports getting close on subvertion ane will be here soon
 +
[7:26pm] <skippy> I recall saying that it was committed.
 +
[7:26pm] <skippy> but since I don't have access to the build teachers, I was not claiming ownership of that item at the time.
 +
[7:26pm] <vagrantc> anyone want to take on that task?
 +
[7:27pm] <tymp> build@lists.freegeek.org should be build teachers, no?
 +
[7:27pm] <vagrantc> there was a build and buildteachers list, don't know if both are actively used or not.
 +
[7:28pm] <tymp> i am still going to mail build list to solicit tests for the gui changes i made, so may as well do that at the same time
 +
[7:28pm] <tymp> .. i don't believe there's a public buildteachers list
 +
[7:28pm] <vagrantc> it's also probably less important than getting adoption feedback.
 +
[7:28pm] <tymp> so...
 +
[7:29pm] <tymp> can we re-commit to the carry-overs ?
 +
[7:29pm] <vagrantc> commit: keep working on package repository options
 +
[7:30pm] <tymp> commit : keep working to help document package repository options
 +
[7:30pm] <WormRunner> I can email the buildteachers list
 +
[7:30pm] <tymp> WormRunner : there is such a list?
 +
[7:30pm] <WormRunner> yes
 +
[7:30pm] <vagrantc> commit: WormRunner email the buildteachers list about build personae
 +
[7:30pm] <WormRunner> I will have to check and see if there are a significant number of people on it
 +
[7:31pm] <WormRunner> but it exists
 +
[7:31pm] <tymp> it is private
 +
[7:31pm] <tymp> apparently
 +
[7:31pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: maybe you should just try and solicit feedback from build.
 +
[7:31pm] <WormRunner> but I have the Power!
 +
[7:31pm] <WormRunner> yeah, the general build list would be fine too
 +
[7:32pm] <vagrantc> i meant build in general.
 +
[7:32pm] <vagrantc> by any means necessary.
 +
[7:32pm] <WormRunner> hehe
 +
[7:32pm] <WormRunner> ok
 +
[7:32pm] <tymp> so vagrantc commited WormRunner to ... ?
 +
[7:32pm] <WormRunner> commit: WormRunner will hobnob with builders about personae
 +
[7:32pm] <tymp> hobnob , excellent
 +
[7:33pm] <tymp> moving on?
 +
[7:33pm] <tymp> objections?
 +
[7:33pm] <tymp> ongoing items:
 +
[7:34pm] <tymp> 1) user oriented design
 +
[7:35pm] <tymp> has this issue moved at all over the last two weeks?
 +
[7:35pm] <skippy> nothing's been changed on the wiki page since 7 September, when I added the preliminary sketch of an FGCMH persona.
 +
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> i would suspect, without commitments from specific people to work on it, nothing will continue to happen.
 +
[7:37pm] <tymp> i ordered the alan cooper book
 +
[7:37pm] <tymp> that zini references heavily
 +
[7:37pm] <vagrantc> feed back from the adoption program will hopefully form a mini-comittee or something.
 +
[7:37pm] <tymp> well, enough said for now?
 +
[7:38pm] <skippy> hold on
 +
[7:38pm] <tymp> k
 +
[7:38pm] <skippy> what constitutes action on this issue? WormRunner will "hobnob", which is fine; but what action do we expect from that hobnobbing?
 +
[7:39pm] <tymp> perspective, documented perspective, and dialog ?
 +
[7:39pm] <tymp> we still have not clearly defined what we mean by "user oriented design"
 +
[7:39pm] <vagrantc> i guess the goal, from my perspective, will be to find people to merge the existing profiles or start from scratch.
 +
[7:40pm] <skippy> I propose that after hobobbing that someone distill the common themes raised from the build / adoption folks; rather than just report the raw data back to us.
 +
[7:40pm] <vagrantc> user oriented design, as i would see it, is developing personae, and then attempting to meet those personae's needs with our software.
 +
[7:41pm] <tymp> as i keep saying, i think this is an extremely long-term project.  rushing into set goals, i think, is a mistake
 +
[7:42pm] <vagrantc> tymp: what goals to you think is mistakenly being set?
 +
[7:42pm] <tymp> creating personae
 +
[7:43pm] <tymp> or, maybe it is me : i feel that this is a brainstorming stage, and the personae developed now will have to change a lot before they are really useful
 +
[7:43pm] <vagrantc> i guess there are other techniques to do user-oriented-design, but the only one we've discussed or made any attempts with is the personae approach ... ?
 +
[7:44pm] <vagrantc> we'll only create good personae after having tried several times to see what actually works ...
 +
[7:44pm] <vagrantc> unless we're naturally really amazing at it, which i doubt :)
 +
[7:44pm] <tymp> ugh, i realize, i'm being vague... it's something about the attitude with which we seem to be trying get something concrete before having done enough sketchwork
 +
[7:45pm] <tymp> perception of others perceptions
 +
[7:45pm] <skippy> At the moment, I don't see it as a terribly complicated process: who are you trying to serve? How are you trying to serve them? In what way will they benefit from your work?
 +
[7:45pm] <skippy> How can you target your work to address their needs?
 +
[7:46pm] * vagrantc agrees with skippy
 +
[7:46pm] <skippy> We don't have to completely nail down our perfect client.
 +
[7:46pm] <skippy> But I think it should be reasonably easy to say "this is -- generally speaking -- the kind of person we expect to serve"
 +
[7:47pm] <skippy> from that, you keep that person in mind when approaching configuration issues.
 +
[7:47pm] <gate> but the persona is suppose to be specific from what I read
 +
[7:47pm] <vagrantc> yes.
 +
[7:47pm] <skippy> the persona is supposed to be one archetypical person.
 +
[7:48pm] <WormRunner> I still don't see a problem with having more than one persona
 +
[7:48pm] <vagrantc> essentially, and example stereotype.
 +
[7:48pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: it becomes very difficult to design software that meets two conflicting needs.
 +
[7:49pm] <WormRunner> I also don't see that they need to conflict, but supplement
 +
[7:49pm] <skippy> WormRunner: when configuring a single system for two different people, how do you decide which options get preference ?
 +
[7:49pm] <gate> just like it become very hard to design a desktop that fits one person's needs
 +
[7:50pm] <gate> when in reality it will be used by different types of people, which brings it back to the multi persona problem
 +
[7:50pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's not that they *have* to conflict, but they *might* conflict at some point.
 +
[7:50pm] <WormRunner> in reality, freekboxes get used by many kinds of people
 +
[7:50pm] <skippy> My opinion is that you make the system sane for your lowest common denominator.
 +
[7:50pm] <skippy> And make it easy for people who want to change it.
 +
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> skippy: that assumes a linear set of users.
 +
[7:51pm] <skippy> But make sure that the default behaviour is sane.
 +
[7:51pm] <WormRunner> sane for the lowest common denominator is ok, but keep more functionality than that
 +
[7:51pm] <tymp> WormRunner : to me, the value of the zini-paper ideas was the imposition of a discipline, otherwies, we can just 'try' to 'satisfy as many people as possible'
 +
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: yes, freekboxen are used by many, and therefore it may make it a difficult design.
 +
[7:52pm] <tymp> it's not the lowest, but a central, clear common set of desires
 +
[7:52pm] <tymp> again, the approach is maybe less suited to a distro design than to a smaller app
 +
[7:52pm] <tymp> but the discipline of it would seem to simplify the process...
 +
[7:53pm] <WormRunner> Many freekboxen are used by all members of a family
 +
[7:53pm] <skippy> I think the process is completely appropriate. Do you think the Ubunut folks said "Let's make this super flexible desktop that mom and dad can use, and also our hardcore hacker friends" ?
 +
[7:54pm] <skippy> WormRunner: sure, and many Windows boxes are used by all members of a family. That doesn't mean that the machine is satisfying their needs.
 +
[7:54pm] <vagrantc> i guess the point is trying to define a common target (or targets) that we are trying to achieve.
 +
[7:54pm] <vagrantc> at the moment, people have this vague, amorphous idea of who they are trying to serve.
 +
[7:55pm] <tymp> WormRunner : there would likely be many common desired uses among a family - the more elegantly we can select across the set ...
 +
[7:55pm] <vagrantc> and that idea is different for each person.
 +
[7:55pm] <WormRunner> tymp: I agree with that
 +
[7:55pm] <vagrantc> by developing personae, we will hopefully have a common idea of the categories of needs that we should try to address.
 +
[7:55pm] <gate> perhaps not making a persona and just a list of what the users want is a better aproach. Give weight to the items that more people request
 +
[7:56pm] <tymp> i really want things to be informe by empirical data as much as possible too...
 +
[7:56pm] <tymp> *informed
 +
[7:56pm] <WormRunner> gate: the value of personae is that you can see that the list may really be two lists
 +
[7:57pm] <vagrantc> or four lists.
 +
[7:57pm] <gate> I beleive the same thing can be seen if the list is a mile long with very little overlapping
 +
[7:57pm] <skippy> I think it's important to note that the process of persona is not to rule out functionality; or to say "that's not something which we're building"; but rather a way to let us focus our energies in an organized manner according to agreed-upon hierarchy
 +
[7:57pm] <WormRunner> You could probably do with 3 or 4 lists and leave out anyone else
 +
[7:58pm] <WormRunner> personae
 +
[7:58pm] <vagrantc> lists are harder to grasp than characters in a book or movie.
 +
[7:58pm] <WormRunner> vagrantc: I agree
 +
[7:58pm] <tymp> I think the persona is more than a list, greater than the sum of the desires, because it is organized around a (artificial) sense of a person.
 +
[7:59pm] <tymp> ..what vagrantc said
 +
[7:59pm] <WormRunner> lol
 +
[7:59pm] <vagrantc> having a defined persona can make it more viable to deal with some random unknown feature that you'd never thought of in your lists... "what would sally want?"
 +
[7:59pm] <gate> and I sure hope the persona is not a book. Its suppose to be short and simple and to the point
 +
[7:59pm] <tymp> it's a trick, and it won't be perfect... but
 +
[8:00pm] <skippy> I look at the whole thing as a check on making sure that my own biases and skills don't effect the product, which is ultimately for someone else.
 +
[8:00pm] <WormRunner> The idea is to elegantly describe a conceptual person
 +
[8:01pm] <tymp> gate : the idea is, you are doing almost all of the hard decision making in the process of constructing the persona, so it may be long, but it may save a great deal of uncertainty and effort later
 +
[8:01pm] <tymp> skippy : that seems like a crucial aspect
 +
[8:01pm] <WormRunner> skippy: good point
 +
[8:01pm] <gate> I understand the idea of a persona. I also see it blowing way paste its goal and ending up in left base
 +
[8:02pm] <tymp> maybe it is important to include the fact that this person/persona will never be fully satisfied by their freekbox
 +
[8:02pm] <WormRunner> hmm
 +
[8:02pm] <vagrantc> i can't imagine anyone ever being truely satisfied with a computer.
 +
[8:02pm] <WormRunner> they are playthings of the devil
 +
[8:02pm] <WormRunner> but interesting and useful
 +
[8:02pm] <tymp> yay!  the devil
 +
[8:03pm] <gate> and cost too dam much
 +
[8:03pm] <WormRunner> yes
 +
[8:03pm] * vagrantc hasn't paid for a computer in nearly 6 years
 +
[8:03pm] * WormRunner pays in sweat and tears
 +
[8:03pm] <WormRunner> and beer
 +
[8:04pm] <tymp> who do you pay with beer?
 +
[8:04pm] <skippy> This discussion was interesting, and useful; but I would like to return to the question of _action_ from the build/adoption folks.
 +
[8:04pm] <vagrantc> heh.
 +
[8:04pm] <gate> yes
 +
[8:04pm] <gate> see what they beleive needs to be in the thing
 +
[8:04pm] <skippy> can we agree that a summary / synthesis of the results is worthwhile?
 +
[8:05pm] <gate> yes
 +
[8:05pm] <tymp> skippy : yes, but i think we can let more data come in before summarizing.  and i suspect, perhaps, that will be best
 +
[8:05pm] <tymp> ... in lieu of someone volunteering to summarize, at least :)
 +
[8:06pm] <vagrantc> to be clear, this is a summary of ... what the build and adoption folks think?
 +
[8:06pm] <tymp> again, i expect this to be rather protracted, but that seems okay, as there are more immediate tasks to focus specific action on for now
 +
[8:06pm] <skippy> That's what I would like to see, vagrantc
 +
[8:07pm] <vagrantc> ok. i wasn't sure at first.
 +
[8:07pm] <gate> I don't see a lot the perona stuff really kicking in till maybe freekbox4. you really have to start from scrach if you are going to do it
 +
[8:08pm] <gate> otherwise you may just end up with a really bad hacked up freekbox3
 +
[8:08pm] <tymp> hmm, i'd tend to agree with gate here
 +
[8:08pm] <WormRunner> amen
 +
[8:08pm] <vagrantc> i disagree, really.
 +
[8:08pm] <WormRunner> vagrant: expand please
 +
[8:09pm] <vagrantc> if we know who we're developing for, we can start moving in that direction one task at a time, unless we find that it requires a 100% different design.
 +
[8:09pm] <vagrantc> anything new we try to implement, the personae can be taken into account.
 +
[8:09pm] <gate> yes, I agree but the real results will not be evident for a while
 +
[8:10pm] <vagrantc> unless whoever developed the current distro(s) is absolutely crazy, i think *some* of the design will be applicable.
 +
[8:10pm] <vagrantc> sure.
 +
[8:10pm] <tymp> can everyone take a second and peek at the agenda and see how much more time we expect to need for this meeting
 +
[8:10pm] <tymp> (i think we should move on)
 +
[8:10pm] <gate> 45 min so I can get to bed
 +
[8:10pm] <skippy> I need to leave at 11:30 PM EST. That's in 20 minutes.
 +
[8:11pm] <tymp> i mean, how long the other 5/6 items should take
 +
[8:11pm] <skippy> well, SVN is a noop right now, so scratch it.
 +
[8:11pm] <WormRunner> the time difference is a real killer here isn't it
 +
[8:11pm] <skippy> bundle long-term outlook and prognosis, and quickly summarize.
 +
[8:11pm] <gate> no, that job I need to show up for is
 +
[8:11pm] <vagrantc> (hence the late agenda item)
 +
[8:12pm] <tymp> can we move on?
 +
[8:12pm] <gate> yes
 +
[8:12pm] <skippy> install our own popcon server? I say sure; each FG should run their own.
 +
[8:12pm] <tymp> can we move on?
 +
[8:12pm] <skippy> yes
 +
[8:12pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i would like to have more discussion of that, but maybe on list?
 +
[8:12pm] <gate> how hard is it to merge popcon data if we wanted to look at a gobal picture
 +
[8:13pm] <vagrantc> basically what i was thinking.
 +
[8:13pm] <skippy> popcon data is stored in atomic files per submitter
 +
[8:13pm] <gate> easy then
 +
[8:13pm] <skippy> so it should be (relatively) easy to synethesize
 +
[8:13pm] <tymp> 2) prognosis: how is this looking & 3) outlook, definition of objectives, estimation of required work, timeline
 +
[8:14pm] <gate> I beleive with the patch I submited to the mial list (can't add till svn is up because so much moves) we are getting close to having a multiprofile installer
 +
[8:15pm] <vagrantc> as far as how it's going, i think there has been some difficult discussion, but there is a little more clarity about how we can and can't work together.
 +
[8:15pm] <meho> we may have to think about popcon running on computers not connected to the interned, I remember mine filling my rootmail
 +
[8:15pm] <tymp> i think it's very promising, if in a slightly murky stage
 +
[8:15pm] <vagrantc> meho: that's what the HTTP post is about.
 +
[8:16pm] <tymp> if we mix topics, it's that much harder to summarize the log
 +
[8:16pm] <meho> tymp: sorry
 +
[8:16pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i guess the prognosis is not a clear topic.
 +
[8:16pm] <tymp> na
 +
[8:16pm] <skippy> tymp: I agree that it's promising; but I think the time-line is considerably longer than I would like. The number of partricipants is extremely small, which means that specific action gets bogged down.
 +
[8:17pm] <tymp> - i think it is better combined with 3) as skippy suggested
 +
[8:17pm] <tymp> bringing in more participation would help
 +
[8:17pm] <vagrantc> it's far more participants than we've ever had before, though we're more ambitious, too.
 +
[8:17pm] <tymp> i think defining objectives will help with that too - people like structure
 +
[8:18pm] <WormRunner> a small number of people can get things done really fast
 +
[8:18pm] <tymp> (or, it's easier to deal with, anyway - structure)
 +
[8:18pm] <skippy> the definition of objectives will also need some focus; so that we know what we as a group should be working on.
 +
[8:18pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: if they're able to focus on a small number of things.
 +
[8:18pm] <WormRunner> yes
 +
[8:18pm] <skippy> can we talk about the multi-profile install CD before I need to leave ?
 +
[8:19pm] * vagrantc wouldn't object
 +
[8:19pm] <tymp> something on my mind a lot, as a passive observer of the list exchanges recently, is that we are ...
 +
[8:19pm] <tymp> less in agreement on fb3 than we could be
 +
[8:19pm] <tymp> skippy : how long do you have?
 +
[8:19pm] <skippy> tymp: I
 +
[8:20pm] <skippy> I'd really like to leavein 10 minutes.
 +
[8:20pm] <skippy> You're right, we are not in full agreement about the FB3.
 +
[8:20pm] <tymp> i think gnome is unnecessary, actually
 +
[8:20pm] <skippy> and I think KDE is a bad choice for new users.
 +
[8:20pm] <skippy> so, we're at an impasse.
 +
[8:20pm] <tymp> and i think it's possible we can find agreement on that
 +
[8:20pm] <tymp> skippy : but we've never discussed it, at all i think
 +
[8:21pm] <WormRunner> I actually think KDE is a good choice. There might be better ones.
 +
[8:21pm] <vagrantc> sounds like a list discussion, considering time constraints?
 +
[8:21pm] <WormRunner> but the users find it intuitive
 +
[8:21pm] <tymp> i don't think it's on-topic or profitable to discuss it right now
 +
[8:21pm] <WormRunner> the list it is
 +
[8:21pm] <skippy> I believe we tried to float some of this to the list when we (fgcmh) first got underway; there was little response.
 +
[8:21pm] <tymp> important list discussion, yes
 +
[8:22pm] <tymp> skippy : i know.  sorry for that - it took awhile to feel like there was anything happening...
 +
[8:22pm] <skippy> to me it seems like "the list" is Vagrant and I.
 +
[8:22pm] <vagrantc> with the occasional gate.
 +
[8:23pm] <tymp> skippy : i know.  patience, though.
 +
[8:23pm] <gate> ya, just depends on if I feel my word needs to be spoken.
 +
[8:23pm] <skippy> I posted an item to the Installer_CD talk page: http://wiki.freegeek.org/index.php/Talk:Installer_CD
 +
[8:23pm] <skippy> asking whether there was any perceived value in locally branded installations
 +
[8:24pm] <skippy> if there is, that rather diminishes some of the value of a multi-profile CD
 +
[8:24pm] <tymp> can folks commit to weighing in on kde vs gnome on the list?
 +
[8:24pm] <tymp> commit : weigh in on kde vs gnome on the distro list
 +
[8:24pm] <gate> tymp: yes gnome vs kde is list materia
 +
[8:24pm] <WormRunner> commit: WormRunner will talk on the list
 +
[8:24pm] * meho commits to join the list discution on kde v gnome
 +
[8:25pm] <meho> and the laptop desktop.....
 +
[8:25pm] <WormRunner> I don't actually use either myself
 +
[8:25pm] <tymp> okay, quickly for install CD before skippy's gotta go?
 +
[8:25pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i'd like to talk some about the local branding stuff on list ..
 +
[8:25pm] <tymp> i'd like to talk about why the list is being underutilized on the list
 +
[8:26pm] <tymp> and about why this is important, on the list, and...
 +
[8:26pm] <tymp> sorry
 +
[8:26pm] <gate> I think the real value of the mulit profile cd is the ability to pick and choose what we want on it. trying to cram it on on the same cd it looking imposible
 +
[8:26pm] <tymp> though, the work on scrunching it all in is impressive
 +
[8:26pm] <vagrantc> gate: not impossible. the current freekbox3 and gnome profiles fit in 656MB
 +
[8:27pm] <gate> but what happens when a new package is needed from this persona stuff
 +
[8:27pm] <vagrantc> the big one is me trying to cram all sorts of server possibilities into the baseserver profile.
 +
[8:27pm] <tymp> my opinion is that for the moment - and what we need in oly - a single freekbox3 installer is desirable - i think this will be useful in pdx too
 +
[8:27pm] <skippy> what happens when Debian Etch is released, and perhaps KDE or GNOME increase substantially in size?
 +
[8:27pm] <tymp> *a single *bug-free* fb3 installer
 +
[8:28pm] <vagrantc> that's a long way off.
 +
[8:28pm] <gate> if all the profiles use the same installer is no big deal if we "brand" custom cds with just wants needed
 +
[8:28pm] <vagrantc> yeah.
 +
[8:28pm] <WormRunner> by then dvd players will be as common as cd players are now
 +
[8:28pm] * vagrantc doubts
 +
[8:29pm] <skippy> etch isn't that far off. It's my understanding that the Debian team have heard the outcry about the delays in Sarge, and want to revise it.
 +
[8:29pm] <gate> what, no three year wait
 +
[8:29pm] <tymp> one scenario would be : make 2 or 3 separate install CDs and then integrate them
 +
[8:29pm] <vagrantc> no sooner than a year, and probably at least 2.
 +
[8:30pm] <tymp> i can see the knowledgebase here increasing considerably in that time if some of us stick to it ... which is perhaps a bad way to look at it and base expectations...
 +
[8:30pm] <gate> tymp: with the current simple-ccd method it is that easy. But they are intregrated. The only thing that changes is the preseed stuff, packages and a few conf files
 +
[8:30pm] <vagrantc> i guess, at the moment, unless we want dramatically more on the CD, i'm willing to try and figure out how to cram it onto a single CD.
 +
[8:31pm] <vagrantc> i'm most interested in a more generic, less specific-purpose CD. and infrastructure to make single or multi-profile CDs.
 +
[8:32pm] <tymp> well, what i know is that i intend to put together a single fb3 installer myself, and orientate myself to simple-cdd in the process
 +
[8:32pm] <gate> I think craming will cause more problems. nothing wrong with just pressing a different iso. besides do you guys really want all the gnome packages wasting space
 +
[8:32pm] <tymp> but i'm not committing to anything right now today
 +
[8:32pm] <vagrantc> i don't feel like there's much, if any, cramming needed at the moment, and don't forsee much in the future.
 +
[8:33pm] <vagrantc> near future
 +
[8:33pm] <vagrantc> but maybe i'm crazy.
 +
[8:33pm] <skippy> if a multi-profile CD is decided as the best bet, I think a one-button install process to spawn that install is the way to go.
 +
[8:33pm] <tymp> *except it won't fit on a 650mb, which all the rewritables i have seem to be
 +
[8:34pm] <tymp> skippy, gate : have you gotten to the stage of burning simple-cdd created images yet?
 +
[8:34pm] <gate> out package list might change a bit and I really don't want to worry about having to add a 5 meg package and all the problems if might cause
 +
[8:34pm] <skippy> tymp: I've tried a few times. I'm finding the entire process confusing.
 +
[8:35pm] <vagrantc> gate: ok. you produce your CD, and i'll include it as long as it fits.
 +
[8:35pm] * tymp thinks we have done a reasonable amount of fleshing out of this issue for the time allowed
 +
[8:35pm] <gate> tymp: I have made some but gave up till I tracked all the bugs I created in the installer. I beleive I can make on with no problems now
 +
[8:36pm] <skippy> anyone have anything they need o fme before I leave?
 +
[8:36pm] <vagrantc> the one reason i think the gnome stuff will be valuable to freegeek is the interest in gnopernicus, for vision-accessibility
 +
[8:36pm] <vagrantc> freegeek portland
 +
[8:36pm] * vagrantc winces
 +
[8:36pm] <tymp> skippy : do you know anything about svn situation?
 +
[8:37pm] <vagrantc> there's nothing comparable for KDE, that i'm aware of.
 +
[8:37pm] <tymp> vagrantc : agree
 +
[8:37pm] <skippy> tymp: not a clue. I've tried to help stillflame with a number of setup/config issues, but there's been little visible movement from my perspective
 +
[8:37pm] <tymp> and i understand gnome in general has had more focus on accessibility issues
 +
[8:37pm] <tymp> skippy : okey
 +
[8:38pm] <gate> hence one reason we chose it. but thats for the mailing list
 +
[8:38pm] <tymp> skippy : i release my lock on you :)
 +
[8:38pm] skippy (n=skippy@skippy.net) is now known as skippy|away
 +
[8:38pm] <tymp> gate : true
 +
[8:38pm] <tymp> moving on?
 +
[8:39pm] <tymp> objections?
 +
[8:39pm] <tymp> i'm afraid 4) was covered as much as possible above
 +
[8:39pm] <tymp> can someone summarize?
 +
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> what is "4)" ?
 +
[8:39pm] <tymp> 4) hosting our own popcon server
 +
[8:40pm] <vagrantc> basically, skippy put one up. don't know if it's configured to process the data, but it accepts HTTP post submissions (i tried)
 +
[8:41pm] <tymp> so, we can all try submitting with popcon client?
 +
[8:41pm] <vagrantc> i think it might be possible to configure multiple popcon submission URLs on a single server, and process the data differently.
 +
[8:42pm] <tymp> commit : try submitting to skippy's popcon server
 +
[8:42pm] <tymp> i will set it up on our office machine
 +
[8:43pm] <tymp> ugh, commit: i will set popcon up on fgoly's office machine
 +
[8:43pm] <vagrantc> i've already set it up on my laptop.
 +
[8:44pm] <tymp> is the data viewable?
 +
[8:44pm] <vagrantc> http://freegeekcolumbus.org/popcon/popcon-data/
 +
[8:44pm] <tymp> okay
 +
[8:44pm] <vagrantc> look at it before you submit, and then after.
 +
[8:45pm] <tymp> what are the directories?  '23' '89' ?
 +
[8:45pm] <vagrantc> the first two alphanumeric characters of your id.
 +
[8:45pm] * WormRunner is turning into a pumpkin
 +
[8:45pm] <vagrantc> which can be found in your popularity-contest files.
 +
[8:45pm] <WormRunner> nite all
 +
[8:45pm] <tymp> nite WormRunner
 +
[8:46pm] <gate> night
 +
[8:46pm] <tymp> vagrantc : so the data is separate for two users?
 +
[8:47pm] <meho> ../portland starts cloasing process
 +
[8:47pm] <vagrantc> tymp: there will be many sub-dirs, and under each sub-dir, files that begin with the first two characters in their id.
 +
[8:48pm] <gate> ya, its gettting late. how many more points
 +
[8:48pm] <tymp> okay, so we interrupted 2) and 3)
 +
[8:48pm] <vagrantc> and 2) and 3) are?
 +
[8:48pm] <tymp> (prognosis and outlook)
 +
[8:48pm] <tymp> sorry
 +
[8:48pm] * vagrantc wonders where these numbers come from
 +
[8:48pm] <tymp> and there is 6) svn.freegeek.org
 +
[8:49pm] <tymp> and one late item : how is the meeting time/date
 +
[8:49pm] <vagrantc> and a late item that we won't have enough people for because it's too relevent.
 +
[8:50pm] <gate> not much we can unless we want to move to weekends which I think it out
 +
[8:50pm] <tymp> vagrant : the numbers are just the order from the agenda ... not counting commitments
 +
[8:50pm] <vagrantc> i propose we table svn.freegeek.org, and make sure martin finishes it soon.
 +
[8:50pm] <tymp> what about monday?
 +
[8:50pm] <tymp> for meetings
 +
[8:50pm] <vagrantc> or else!
 +
[8:50pm] <tymp> yes, let's all threaten him on list
 +
[8:50pm] <vagrantc> i have meetings 1-2 times a month on monday evenings.
 +
[8:50pm] <tymp> we'll cut his hair
 +
[8:51pm] <gate> the day really does not matter much for us in columbus. its starting at 10pm thats ruff
 +
[8:51pm] <vagrantc> for one more month.
 +
[8:51pm] <tymp> i say monday because fgpdx is closed then
 +
[8:51pm] <gate> should work for me
 +
[8:51pm] <gate> not sure about skippy
 +
[8:51pm] <tymp> vagrantc : are your meetings unpredictable mondays?
 +
[8:51pm] <vagrantc> should take it to list?
 +
[8:52pm] <tymp> yes
 +
[8:52pm] <gate> at least post a vote to the list
 +
[8:52pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i have one more meeting this coming monday.
 +
[8:52pm] <gate> are we able to start earlier if we move to monday
 +
[8:52pm] <tymp> vagrantc : so that's perfect
 +
[8:52pm] <tymp> gate : that was the idea
 +
[8:52pm] <vagrantc> gate: that was my goal- to get the meeting earlier.
 +
[8:53pm] <gate> I think an hour is all the is needed. so 9 est
 +
[8:53pm] <tymp> gate : uh, are you two hours ahead of us?
 +
[8:53pm] <vagrantc> till the end of october, i could probably meet most mondays at ... 5pm -0700
 +
[8:53pm] <gate> 3 I think. its justg about 12 here
 +
[8:53pm] <tymp> gate : ok
 +
[8:53pm] <tymp> i think 5-7 / 8-10 sounds better ?
 +
[8:54pm] <tymp> to the list with that
 +
[8:54pm] <vagrantc> yes.
 +
[8:54pm] <tymp> svn is tabled?
 +
[8:54pm] <gate> ok
 +
[8:54pm] <tymp> we can go back to...
 +
[8:54pm] <tymp> or, nah
 +
[8:54pm] <vagrantc> 5 minutes left.
 +
[8:54pm] <vagrantc> thereabouts
 +
[8:54pm] <tymp> just get the next meeting straight
 +
[8:55pm] <tymp> in brief, i think, clearly, more communication from more perspectives will be the best thing that can happen toward the future
 +
[8:55pm] <tymp> can anyone summarize this? 
 +
[8:55pm] <tymp> commit : post log
 +
[8:56pm] <tymp> who wants to facilitate next
 +
[8:56pm] <tymp> and can we get the agenda sooner
 +
[8:56pm] <tymp> i nominate vagrantc to do everything :P
 +
[8:56pm] <tymp> kidding
 +
[8:57pm] <tymp> meho : will you have any time?
 +
[8:57pm] <gate> think we lost everyone
 +
[8:58pm] <tymp> commit : hassle on the list for a facilitator for next meeting and agenda items
 +
[8:58pm] <tymp> did meho leave?
 +
[8:58pm] <tymp> are we there yet?
 +
[8:58pm] <gate> think so
 +
[8:58pm] <vagrantc> 2 minutes to spare!
 +
[8:59pm] <tymp> the meeting is dead, long live the meeting!
 +
[8:59pm] <tymp> under budget.  sweet!
 +
[9:02pm] <gate> ok, I started my simple-ccd build some its bed time
 +
[9:02pm] <gate> night
 +
</pre>
  
−
post complete log here.
 
  
 
[[Category:Distro]]
 
[[Category:Distro]]

Latest revision as of 19:19, 6 October 2005

  • date: Sep 27, 2005
  • checkin time: 7pm PDT -0700 (10pm EDT)
  • meeting time 7:15pm PDT -0700 (10:15pm EDT)
  • meet in irc.freenode.net #freegeek-distro

Agenda

commitments from last meeting:

martin:

  • get tested a freekbox3 package release
  • post instructions to pdx QC process.
  • finish svn, add user access (either ssh or webdav)
  • post log of meeting

scott:

rob:

  • spend 4 hours over next two weeks helping document putting packages packages in repository (michael wanted to help with this "as long as I can poke you enough where I fail to understand")
  • post summary of meeting

michael:

  • I will email the adoptionteachers list [to arrange a meeting to discuss developing user personae]

vagrant:

matteo:

  • attend next meeting

somebody:

ongoing items:

  • user-oriented-design
  • Prognosis: how is this project looking?
  • Long-term outlook - including definition of objectives, estimation of required work, and timeline
  • hosting our own popularity-contest server
  • Install CD: multi-profile or otherwise?
  • svn repository hosted at svn.freegeek.org ?

late agenda items(may not have time):

  • how is the meeting time/date (7pm, -0700) for active participants?

log / summary

meeting content should get posted here. some possible useful categories below.

Present

skippy, tymp(facil), gate, vagrantc, meho, WormRunner

Summary

commitments made:

[7:29pm] <vagrantc> commit: keep working on package repository options [7:30pm] <tymp> commit : keep working to help document package repository options

[7:30pm] <vagrantc> commit: WormRunner email the buildteachers list about build personae [7:32pm] <WormRunner> commit: WormRunner will hobnob with builders about personae

[8:24pm] <tymp> commit : weigh in on kde vs gnome on the distro list

[8:24pm] <WormRunner> commit: WormRunner will talk on the list [8:24pm] * meho commits to join the list discution on kde v gnome

[8:42pm] <tymp> commit : try submitting to skippy's popcon server

[8:43pm] <tymp> ugh, commit: i will set popcon up on fgoly's office machine

[8:55pm] <tymp> commit : post log

[8:58pm] <tymp> commit : hassle on the list for a facilitator for next meeting and agenda items

Full Log

7:10pm] <skippy> time to check in?
[7:10pm] <vagrantc> think so, more or less.
[7:11pm] <gate> here
[7:12pm] <vagrantc> here. had a rough two weeks at the farm.
[7:12pm] <skippy> here
[7:12pm] <tymp> hi
[7:12pm] <vagrantc> tymp: you had said you'd facilitate, if i remember correctly?
[7:12pm] <tymp> yes
[7:13pm] <tymp> i have 7:12
[7:13pm] <tymp> does the agenda seem complete?
[7:14pm] <vagrantc> the future meeting time is a late item, and needs approval to be added.
[7:15pm] <vagrantc> i would think.
[7:15pm] <tymp> i have been distracted and unable to contribute as much as i'd like the last month.  hope to be more present in oct
[7:15pm] <vagrantc> stillflame: you around?
[7:15pm] <tymp> i think there will be time
[7:15pm] <tymp> *time for 'meeting time'
[7:15pm] <vagrantc> meho: and you?
[7:16pm] <tymp> well, they can read scrollback
[7:17pm] <tymp> let's go over commitments of those present
[7:17pm] <tymp> scott ?
[7:17pm] <vagrantc> looks like skippy did both commitments.
[7:17pm] <tymp> i see you're items are answered on the wiki
[7:18pm] <tymp> i put in roughly four hours, and posted the summary.
[7:18pm] <gate> speaking of that. vagrantc, where did u get the backported popcon
[7:18pm] <skippy> Yes, I sent an email to the list that generated an underwhelming response. From that, I infer that I'm off my rocker, and the only one with a complaint.
[7:18pm] <tymp> no, i think it deserves discussion.  
[7:18pm] <skippy> I also set up a popcon "server", which is little more than a CGI script.
[7:18pm] <tymp> i have not been able to find time to process everything and weigh in
[7:18pm] <tymp> but appreciate the dialog
[7:19pm] <tymp> vagrant?
[7:19pm] <vagrantc> gate: i grabbed it from sid, and stuck it into a couple of my repositories
[7:19pm] <gate> ok, thats what I figured
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> i started documenting the CD build cycle. link in the agenda.
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> didn't have a chance to work on package repository stuff much at all.
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> posted
[7:20pm] <vagrantc> a message to the list documenting some slightly more detailed thoughts on the various options.
[7:21pm] <tymp> aye
[7:21pm] Joins: WormRunner (n=earthwor@209-162-205-24.dq1mn.easystreet.com) Clone: stillflame [8 users]
[7:21pm] <tymp> hi michael, we are just checking on commitments
[7:21pm] <WormRunner> hi all. sorry I am late
[7:21pm] <WormRunner> I also will probably not stay the whole time
[7:22pm] <tymp> meho and stillflame and Kiranu_ don't seem to be here either
[7:22pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: are any of them at freegeek?
[7:22pm] <WormRunner> I emailed the adoption teachers, but since I just got to it...
[7:22pm] * meho walks in the door
[7:22pm] <WormRunner> stillflame was, not sure if now
[7:22pm] <WormRunner> I just walked in
[7:23pm] <tymp> meho : read upward ?
[7:23pm] <tymp> meho : we are checking commitments
[7:23pm] <tymp> oh, meho had no commitments - except being here
[7:24pm] <tymp> we'll ask stillflame when he gets here, then?
[7:24pm] <vagrantc> who was asking the build teachers for user personae stuff?
[7:24pm] <WormRunner> me
[7:24pm] <vagrantc> both adoption teachers and build teachers?
[7:25pm] <WormRunner> ah, no
[7:25pm] <WormRunner> sorry
[7:25pm] <WormRunner> stillflame maybe?
[7:25pm] <vagrantc> it was unclear from the irc logs, at least to me.
[7:25pm] <tymp> skippy mentioned it, no?
[7:26pm] <tymp> in a commit: line
[7:26pm] <vagrantc> yes.
[7:26pm] <tymp> skippy : do you recall?
[7:26pm] <vagrantc> but i don't think skippy was the one to take it on.
[7:26pm] <meho> stillflame reports getting close on subvertion ane will be here soon
[7:26pm] <skippy> I recall saying that it was committed.
[7:26pm] <skippy> but since I don't have access to the build teachers, I was not claiming ownership of that item at the time.
[7:26pm] <vagrantc> anyone want to take on that task?
[7:27pm] <tymp> build@lists.freegeek.org should be build teachers, no?
[7:27pm] <vagrantc> there was a build and buildteachers list, don't know if both are actively used or not.
[7:28pm] <tymp> i am still going to mail build list to solicit tests for the gui changes i made, so may as well do that at the same time
[7:28pm] <tymp> .. i don't believe there's a public buildteachers list
[7:28pm] <vagrantc> it's also probably less important than getting adoption feedback.
[7:28pm] <tymp> so...
[7:29pm] <tymp> can we re-commit to the carry-overs ?
[7:29pm] <vagrantc> commit: keep working on package repository options
[7:30pm] <tymp> commit : keep working to help document package repository options
[7:30pm] <WormRunner> I can email the buildteachers list
[7:30pm] <tymp> WormRunner : there is such a list?
[7:30pm] <WormRunner> yes
[7:30pm] <vagrantc> commit: WormRunner email the buildteachers list about build personae
[7:30pm] <WormRunner> I will have to check and see if there are a significant number of people on it
[7:31pm] <WormRunner> but it exists
[7:31pm] <tymp> it is private
[7:31pm] <tymp> apparently
[7:31pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: maybe you should just try and solicit feedback from build.
[7:31pm] <WormRunner> but I have the Power!
[7:31pm] <WormRunner> yeah, the general build list would be fine too
[7:32pm] <vagrantc> i meant build in general.
[7:32pm] <vagrantc> by any means necessary.
[7:32pm] <WormRunner> hehe
[7:32pm] <WormRunner> ok
[7:32pm] <tymp> so vagrantc commited WormRunner to ... ?
[7:32pm] <WormRunner> commit: WormRunner will hobnob with builders about personae
[7:32pm] <tymp> hobnob , excellent
[7:33pm] <tymp> moving on?
[7:33pm] <tymp> objections?
[7:33pm] <tymp> ongoing items: 
[7:34pm] <tymp> 1) user oriented design
[7:35pm] <tymp> has this issue moved at all over the last two weeks?
[7:35pm] <skippy> nothing's been changed on the wiki page since 7 September, when I added the preliminary sketch of an FGCMH persona.
[7:36pm] <vagrantc> i would suspect, without commitments from specific people to work on it, nothing will continue to happen.
[7:37pm] <tymp> i ordered the alan cooper book
[7:37pm] <tymp> that zini references heavily
[7:37pm] <vagrantc> feed back from the adoption program will hopefully form a mini-comittee or something.
[7:37pm] <tymp> well, enough said for now?
[7:38pm] <skippy> hold on
[7:38pm] <tymp> k
[7:38pm] <skippy> what constitutes action on this issue? WormRunner will "hobnob", which is fine; but what action do we expect from that hobnobbing?
[7:39pm] <tymp> perspective, documented perspective, and dialog ?
[7:39pm] <tymp> we still have not clearly defined what we mean by "user oriented design"
[7:39pm] <vagrantc> i guess the goal, from my perspective, will be to find people to merge the existing profiles or start from scratch.
[7:40pm] <skippy> I propose that after hobobbing that someone distill the common themes raised from the build / adoption folks; rather than just report the raw data back to us.
[7:40pm] <vagrantc> user oriented design, as i would see it, is developing personae, and then attempting to meet those personae's needs with our software.
[7:41pm] <tymp> as i keep saying, i think this is an extremely long-term project.  rushing into set goals, i think, is a mistake
[7:42pm] <vagrantc> tymp: what goals to you think is mistakenly being set?
[7:42pm] <tymp> creating personae
[7:43pm] <tymp> or, maybe it is me : i feel that this is a brainstorming stage, and the personae developed now will have to change a lot before they are really useful
[7:43pm] <vagrantc> i guess there are other techniques to do user-oriented-design, but the only one we've discussed or made any attempts with is the personae approach ... ?
[7:44pm] <vagrantc> we'll only create good personae after having tried several times to see what actually works ...
[7:44pm] <vagrantc> unless we're naturally really amazing at it, which i doubt :)
[7:44pm] <tymp> ugh, i realize, i'm being vague... it's something about the attitude with which we seem to be trying get something concrete before having done enough sketchwork
[7:45pm] <tymp> perception of others perceptions
[7:45pm] <skippy> At the moment, I don't see it as a terribly complicated process: who are you trying to serve? How are you trying to serve them? In what way will they benefit from your work?
[7:45pm] <skippy> How can you target your work to address their needs?
[7:46pm] * vagrantc agrees with skippy
[7:46pm] <skippy> We don't have to completely nail down our perfect client.
[7:46pm] <skippy> But I think it should be reasonably easy to say "this is -- generally speaking -- the kind of person we expect to serve"
[7:47pm] <skippy> from that, you keep that person in mind when approaching configuration issues.
[7:47pm] <gate> but the persona is suppose to be specific from what I read
[7:47pm] <vagrantc> yes.
[7:47pm] <skippy> the persona is supposed to be one archetypical person.
[7:48pm] <WormRunner> I still don't see a problem with having more than one persona
[7:48pm] <vagrantc> essentially, and example stereotype.
[7:48pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: it becomes very difficult to design software that meets two conflicting needs.
[7:49pm] <WormRunner> I also don't see that they need to conflict, but supplement
[7:49pm] <skippy> WormRunner: when configuring a single system for two different people, how do you decide which options get preference ?
[7:49pm] <gate> just like it become very hard to design a desktop that fits one person's needs
[7:50pm] <gate> when in reality it will be used by different types of people, which brings it back to the multi persona problem
[7:50pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: it's not that they *have* to conflict, but they *might* conflict at some point.
[7:50pm] <WormRunner> in reality, freekboxes get used by many kinds of people
[7:50pm] <skippy> My opinion is that you make the system sane for your lowest common denominator.
[7:50pm] <skippy> And make it easy for people who want to change it.
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> skippy: that assumes a linear set of users.
[7:51pm] <skippy> But make sure that the default behaviour is sane.
[7:51pm] <WormRunner> sane for the lowest common denominator is ok, but keep more functionality than that
[7:51pm] <tymp> WormRunner : to me, the value of the zini-paper ideas was the imposition of a discipline, otherwies, we can just 'try' to 'satisfy as many people as possible'
[7:51pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: yes, freekboxen are used by many, and therefore it may make it a difficult design.
[7:52pm] <tymp> it's not the lowest, but a central, clear common set of desires
[7:52pm] <tymp> again, the approach is maybe less suited to a distro design than to a smaller app
[7:52pm] <tymp> but the discipline of it would seem to simplify the process...
[7:53pm] <WormRunner> Many freekboxen are used by all members of a family
[7:53pm] <skippy> I think the process is completely appropriate. Do you think the Ubunut folks said "Let's make this super flexible desktop that mom and dad can use, and also our hardcore hacker friends" ?
[7:54pm] <skippy> WormRunner: sure, and many Windows boxes are used by all members of a family. That doesn't mean that the machine is satisfying their needs.
[7:54pm] <vagrantc> i guess the point is trying to define a common target (or targets) that we are trying to achieve.
[7:54pm] <vagrantc> at the moment, people have this vague, amorphous idea of who they are trying to serve.
[7:55pm] <tymp> WormRunner : there would likely be many common desired uses among a family - the more elegantly we can select across the set ...
[7:55pm] <vagrantc> and that idea is different for each person.
[7:55pm] <WormRunner> tymp: I agree with that
[7:55pm] <vagrantc> by developing personae, we will hopefully have a common idea of the categories of needs that we should try to address.
[7:55pm] <gate> perhaps not making a persona and just a list of what the users want is a better aproach. Give weight to the items that more people request
[7:56pm] <tymp> i really want things to be informe by empirical data as much as possible too...
[7:56pm] <tymp> *informed
[7:56pm] <WormRunner> gate: the value of personae is that you can see that the list may really be two lists
[7:57pm] <vagrantc> or four lists.
[7:57pm] <gate> I beleive the same thing can be seen if the list is a mile long with very little overlapping
[7:57pm] <skippy> I think it's important to note that the process of persona is not to rule out functionality; or to say "that's not something which we're building"; but rather a way to let us focus our energies in an organized manner according to agreed-upon hierarchy
[7:57pm] <WormRunner> You could probably do with 3 or 4 lists and leave out anyone else
[7:58pm] <WormRunner> personae
[7:58pm] <vagrantc> lists are harder to grasp than characters in a book or movie.
[7:58pm] <WormRunner> vagrantc: I agree
[7:58pm] <tymp> I think the persona is more than a list, greater than the sum of the desires, because it is organized around a (artificial) sense of a person.
[7:59pm] <tymp> ..what vagrantc said
[7:59pm] <WormRunner> lol
[7:59pm] <vagrantc> having a defined persona can make it more viable to deal with some random unknown feature that you'd never thought of in your lists... "what would sally want?"
[7:59pm] <gate> and I sure hope the persona is not a book. Its suppose to be short and simple and to the point
[7:59pm] <tymp> it's a trick, and it won't be perfect... but
[8:00pm] <skippy> I look at the whole thing as a check on making sure that my own biases and skills don't effect the product, which is ultimately for someone else.
[8:00pm] <WormRunner> The idea is to elegantly describe a conceptual person
[8:01pm] <tymp> gate : the idea is, you are doing almost all of the hard decision making in the process of constructing the persona, so it may be long, but it may save a great deal of uncertainty and effort later
[8:01pm] <tymp> skippy : that seems like a crucial aspect
[8:01pm] <WormRunner> skippy: good point
[8:01pm] <gate> I understand the idea of a persona. I also see it blowing way paste its goal and ending up in left base
[8:02pm] <tymp> maybe it is important to include the fact that this person/persona will never be fully satisfied by their freekbox
[8:02pm] <WormRunner> hmm
[8:02pm] <vagrantc> i can't imagine anyone ever being truely satisfied with a computer.
[8:02pm] <WormRunner> they are playthings of the devil
[8:02pm] <WormRunner> but interesting and useful
[8:02pm] <tymp> yay!  the devil
[8:03pm] <gate> and cost too dam much
[8:03pm] <WormRunner> yes
[8:03pm] * vagrantc hasn't paid for a computer in nearly 6 years
[8:03pm] * WormRunner pays in sweat and tears
[8:03pm] <WormRunner> and beer
[8:04pm] <tymp> who do you pay with beer?
[8:04pm] <skippy> This discussion was interesting, and useful; but I would like to return to the question of _action_ from the build/adoption folks.
[8:04pm] <vagrantc> heh.
[8:04pm] <gate> yes
[8:04pm] <gate> see what they beleive needs to be in the thing
[8:04pm] <skippy> can we agree that a summary / synthesis of the results is worthwhile?
[8:05pm] <gate> yes
[8:05pm] <tymp> skippy : yes, but i think we can let more data come in before summarizing.  and i suspect, perhaps, that will be best
[8:05pm] <tymp> ... in lieu of someone volunteering to summarize, at least :)
[8:06pm] <vagrantc> to be clear, this is a summary of ... what the build and adoption folks think?
[8:06pm] <tymp> again, i expect this to be rather protracted, but that seems okay, as there are more immediate tasks to focus specific action on for now
[8:06pm] <skippy> That's what I would like to see, vagrantc
[8:07pm] <vagrantc> ok. i wasn't sure at first.
[8:07pm] <gate> I don't see a lot the perona stuff really kicking in till maybe freekbox4. you really have to start from scrach if you are going to do it
[8:08pm] <gate> otherwise you may just end up with a really bad hacked up freekbox3
[8:08pm] <tymp> hmm, i'd tend to agree with gate here
[8:08pm] <WormRunner> amen
[8:08pm] <vagrantc> i disagree, really.
[8:08pm] <WormRunner> vagrant: expand please
[8:09pm] <vagrantc> if we know who we're developing for, we can start moving in that direction one task at a time, unless we find that it requires a 100% different design.
[8:09pm] <vagrantc> anything new we try to implement, the personae can be taken into account.
[8:09pm] <gate> yes, I agree but the real results will not be evident for a while
[8:10pm] <vagrantc> unless whoever developed the current distro(s) is absolutely crazy, i think *some* of the design will be applicable.
[8:10pm] <vagrantc> sure.
[8:10pm] <tymp> can everyone take a second and peek at the agenda and see how much more time we expect to need for this meeting
[8:10pm] <tymp> (i think we should move on)
[8:10pm] <gate> 45 min so I can get to bed
[8:10pm] <skippy> I need to leave at 11:30 PM EST. That's in 20 minutes.
[8:11pm] <tymp> i mean, how long the other 5/6 items should take
[8:11pm] <skippy> well, SVN is a noop right now, so scratch it.
[8:11pm] <WormRunner> the time difference is a real killer here isn't it
[8:11pm] <skippy> bundle long-term outlook and prognosis, and quickly summarize.
[8:11pm] <gate> no, that job I need to show up for is
[8:11pm] <vagrantc> (hence the late agenda item)
[8:12pm] <tymp> can we move on?
[8:12pm] <gate> yes
[8:12pm] <skippy> install our own popcon server? I say sure; each FG should run their own.
[8:12pm] <tymp> can we move on?
[8:12pm] <skippy> yes
[8:12pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i would like to have more discussion of that, but maybe on list?
[8:12pm] <gate> how hard is it to merge popcon data if we wanted to look at a gobal picture
[8:13pm] <vagrantc> basically what i was thinking.
[8:13pm] <skippy> popcon data is stored in atomic files per submitter
[8:13pm] <gate> easy then
[8:13pm] <skippy> so it should be (relatively) easy to synethesize
[8:13pm] <tymp> 2) prognosis: how is this looking & 3) outlook, definition of objectives, estimation of required work, timeline
[8:14pm] <gate> I beleive with the patch I submited to the mial list (can't add till svn is up because so much moves) we are getting close to having a multiprofile installer
[8:15pm] <vagrantc> as far as how it's going, i think there has been some difficult discussion, but there is a little more clarity about how we can and can't work together.
[8:15pm] <meho> we may have to think about popcon running on computers not connected to the interned, I remember mine filling my rootmail
[8:15pm] <tymp> i think it's very promising, if in a slightly murky stage
[8:15pm] <vagrantc> meho: that's what the HTTP post is about.
[8:16pm] <tymp> if we mix topics, it's that much harder to summarize the log
[8:16pm] <meho> tymp: sorry
[8:16pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i guess the prognosis is not a clear topic.
[8:16pm] <tymp> na
[8:16pm] <skippy> tymp: I agree that it's promising; but I think the time-line is considerably longer than I would like. The number of partricipants is extremely small, which means that specific action gets bogged down.
[8:17pm] <tymp> - i think it is better combined with 3) as skippy suggested
[8:17pm] <tymp> bringing in more participation would help
[8:17pm] <vagrantc> it's far more participants than we've ever had before, though we're more ambitious, too.
[8:17pm] <tymp> i think defining objectives will help with that too - people like structure
[8:18pm] <WormRunner> a small number of people can get things done really fast
[8:18pm] <tymp> (or, it's easier to deal with, anyway - structure)
[8:18pm] <skippy> the definition of objectives will also need some focus; so that we know what we as a group should be working on.
[8:18pm] <vagrantc> WormRunner: if they're able to focus on a small number of things.
[8:18pm] <WormRunner> yes
[8:18pm] <skippy> can we talk about the multi-profile install CD before I need to leave ?
[8:19pm] * vagrantc wouldn't object
[8:19pm] <tymp> something on my mind a lot, as a passive observer of the list exchanges recently, is that we are ... 
[8:19pm] <tymp> less in agreement on fb3 than we could be
[8:19pm] <tymp> skippy : how long do you have?
[8:19pm] <skippy> tymp: I
[8:20pm] <skippy> I'd really like to leavein 10 minutes.
[8:20pm] <skippy> You're right, we are not in full agreement about the FB3.
[8:20pm] <tymp> i think gnome is unnecessary, actually
[8:20pm] <skippy> and I think KDE is a bad choice for new users.
[8:20pm] <skippy> so, we're at an impasse.
[8:20pm] <tymp> and i think it's possible we can find agreement on that
[8:20pm] <tymp> skippy : but we've never discussed it, at all i think
[8:21pm] <WormRunner> I actually think KDE is a good choice. There might be better ones.
[8:21pm] <vagrantc> sounds like a list discussion, considering time constraints?
[8:21pm] <WormRunner> but the users find it intuitive
[8:21pm] <tymp> i don't think it's on-topic or profitable to discuss it right now
[8:21pm] <WormRunner> the list it is
[8:21pm] <skippy> I believe we tried to float some of this to the list when we (fgcmh) first got underway; there was little response.
[8:21pm] <tymp> important list discussion, yes
[8:22pm] <tymp> skippy : i know.  sorry for that - it took awhile to feel like there was anything happening... 
[8:22pm] <skippy> to me it seems like "the list" is Vagrant and I.
[8:22pm] <vagrantc> with the occasional gate.
[8:23pm] <tymp> skippy : i know.  patience, though.
[8:23pm] <gate> ya, just depends on if I feel my word needs to be spoken.
[8:23pm] <skippy> I posted an item to the Installer_CD talk page: http://wiki.freegeek.org/index.php/Talk:Installer_CD
[8:23pm] <skippy> asking whether there was any perceived value in locally branded installations
[8:24pm] <skippy> if there is, that rather diminishes some of the value of a multi-profile CD
[8:24pm] <tymp> can folks commit to weighing in on kde vs gnome on the list?
[8:24pm] <tymp> commit : weigh in on kde vs gnome on the distro list
[8:24pm] <gate> tymp: yes gnome vs kde is list materia
[8:24pm] <WormRunner> commit: WormRunner will talk on the list
[8:24pm] * meho commits to join the list discution on kde v gnome
[8:25pm] <meho> and the laptop desktop.....
[8:25pm] <WormRunner> I don't actually use either myself
[8:25pm] <tymp> okay, quickly for install CD before skippy's gotta go?
[8:25pm] <vagrantc> skippy: i'd like to talk some about the local branding stuff on list ..
[8:25pm] <tymp> i'd like to talk about why the list is being underutilized on the list
[8:26pm] <tymp> and about why this is important, on the list, and...
[8:26pm] <tymp> sorry
[8:26pm] <gate> I think the real value of the mulit profile cd is the ability to pick and choose what we want on it. trying to cram it on on the same cd it looking imposible
[8:26pm] <tymp> though, the work on scrunching it all in is impressive
[8:26pm] <vagrantc> gate: not impossible. the current freekbox3 and gnome profiles fit in 656MB
[8:27pm] <gate> but what happens when a new package is needed from this persona stuff
[8:27pm] <vagrantc> the big one is me trying to cram all sorts of server possibilities into the baseserver profile.
[8:27pm] <tymp> my opinion is that for the moment - and what we need in oly - a single freekbox3 installer is desirable - i think this will be useful in pdx too
[8:27pm] <skippy> what happens when Debian Etch is released, and perhaps KDE or GNOME increase substantially in size?
[8:27pm] <tymp> *a single *bug-free* fb3 installer
[8:28pm] <vagrantc> that's a long way off.
[8:28pm] <gate> if all the profiles use the same installer is no big deal if we "brand" custom cds with just wants needed
[8:28pm] <vagrantc> yeah.
[8:28pm] <WormRunner> by then dvd players will be as common as cd players are now
[8:28pm] * vagrantc doubts
[8:29pm] <skippy> etch isn't that far off. It's my understanding that the Debian team have heard the outcry about the delays in Sarge, and want to revise it.
[8:29pm] <gate> what, no three year wait
[8:29pm] <tymp> one scenario would be : make 2 or 3 separate install CDs and then integrate them
[8:29pm] <vagrantc> no sooner than a year, and probably at least 2.
[8:30pm] <tymp> i can see the knowledgebase here increasing considerably in that time if some of us stick to it ... which is perhaps a bad way to look at it and base expectations...
[8:30pm] <gate> tymp: with the current simple-ccd method it is that easy. But they are intregrated. The only thing that changes is the preseed stuff, packages and a few conf files
[8:30pm] <vagrantc> i guess, at the moment, unless we want dramatically more on the CD, i'm willing to try and figure out how to cram it onto a single CD.
[8:31pm] <vagrantc> i'm most interested in a more generic, less specific-purpose CD. and infrastructure to make single or multi-profile CDs.
[8:32pm] <tymp> well, what i know is that i intend to put together a single fb3 installer myself, and orientate myself to simple-cdd in the process
[8:32pm] <gate> I think craming will cause more problems. nothing wrong with just pressing a different iso. besides do you guys really want all the gnome packages wasting space
[8:32pm] <tymp> but i'm not committing to anything right now today
[8:32pm] <vagrantc> i don't feel like there's much, if any, cramming needed at the moment, and don't forsee much in the future.
[8:33pm] <vagrantc> near future
[8:33pm] <vagrantc> but maybe i'm crazy.
[8:33pm] <skippy> if a multi-profile CD is decided as the best bet, I think a one-button install process to spawn that install is the way to go.
[8:33pm] <tymp> *except it won't fit on a 650mb, which all the rewritables i have seem to be
[8:34pm] <tymp> skippy, gate : have you gotten to the stage of burning simple-cdd created images yet?
[8:34pm] <gate> out package list might change a bit and I really don't want to worry about having to add a 5 meg package and all the problems if might cause
[8:34pm] <skippy> tymp: I've tried a few times. I'm finding the entire process confusing.
[8:35pm] <vagrantc> gate: ok. you produce your CD, and i'll include it as long as it fits.
[8:35pm] * tymp thinks we have done a reasonable amount of fleshing out of this issue for the time allowed
[8:35pm] <gate> tymp: I have made some but gave up till I tracked all the bugs I created in the installer. I beleive I can make on with no problems now
[8:36pm] <skippy> anyone have anything they need o fme before I leave?
[8:36pm] <vagrantc> the one reason i think the gnome stuff will be valuable to freegeek is the interest in gnopernicus, for vision-accessibility
[8:36pm] <vagrantc> freegeek portland
[8:36pm] * vagrantc winces
[8:36pm] <tymp> skippy : do you know anything about svn situation?
[8:37pm] <vagrantc> there's nothing comparable for KDE, that i'm aware of.
[8:37pm] <tymp> vagrantc : agree
[8:37pm] <skippy> tymp: not a clue. I've tried to help stillflame with a number of setup/config issues, but there's been little visible movement from my perspective
[8:37pm] <tymp> and i understand gnome in general has had more focus on accessibility issues
[8:37pm] <tymp> skippy : okey
[8:38pm] <gate> hence one reason we chose it. but thats for the mailing list
[8:38pm] <tymp> skippy : i release my lock on you :)
[8:38pm] skippy (n=skippy@skippy.net) is now known as skippy|away
[8:38pm] <tymp> gate : true
[8:38pm] <tymp> moving on?
[8:39pm] <tymp> objections?
[8:39pm] <tymp> i'm afraid 4) was covered as much as possible above
[8:39pm] <tymp> can someone summarize?
[8:39pm] <vagrantc> what is "4)" ?
[8:39pm] <tymp> 4) hosting our own popcon server
[8:40pm] <vagrantc> basically, skippy put one up. don't know if it's configured to process the data, but it accepts HTTP post submissions (i tried)
[8:41pm] <tymp> so, we can all try submitting with popcon client?
[8:41pm] <vagrantc> i think it might be possible to configure multiple popcon submission URLs on a single server, and process the data differently.
[8:42pm] <tymp> commit : try submitting to skippy's popcon server
[8:42pm] <tymp> i will set it up on our office machine
[8:43pm] <tymp> ugh, commit: i will set popcon up on fgoly's office machine
[8:43pm] <vagrantc> i've already set it up on my laptop.
[8:44pm] <tymp> is the data viewable?
[8:44pm] <vagrantc> http://freegeekcolumbus.org/popcon/popcon-data/
[8:44pm] <tymp> okay
[8:44pm] <vagrantc> look at it before you submit, and then after.
[8:45pm] <tymp> what are the directories?  '23' '89' ?
[8:45pm] <vagrantc> the first two alphanumeric characters of your id.
[8:45pm] * WormRunner is turning into a pumpkin
[8:45pm] <vagrantc> which can be found in your popularity-contest files.
[8:45pm] <WormRunner> nite all
[8:45pm] <tymp> nite WormRunner
[8:46pm] <gate> night
[8:46pm] <tymp> vagrantc : so the data is separate for two users?
[8:47pm] <meho> ../portland starts cloasing process
[8:47pm] <vagrantc> tymp: there will be many sub-dirs, and under each sub-dir, files that begin with the first two characters in their id.
[8:48pm] <gate> ya, its gettting late. how many more points
[8:48pm] <tymp> okay, so we interrupted 2) and 3)
[8:48pm] <vagrantc> and 2) and 3) are?
[8:48pm] <tymp> (prognosis and outlook)
[8:48pm] <tymp> sorry
[8:48pm] * vagrantc wonders where these numbers come from
[8:48pm] <tymp> and there is 6) svn.freegeek.org
[8:49pm] <tymp> and one late item : how is the meeting time/date
[8:49pm] <vagrantc> and a late item that we won't have enough people for because it's too relevent.
[8:50pm] <gate> not much we can unless we want to move to weekends which I think it out
[8:50pm] <tymp> vagrant : the numbers are just the order from the agenda ... not counting commitments
[8:50pm] <vagrantc> i propose we table svn.freegeek.org, and make sure martin finishes it soon.
[8:50pm] <tymp> what about monday?
[8:50pm] <tymp> for meetings
[8:50pm] <vagrantc> or else!
[8:50pm] <tymp> yes, let's all threaten him on list
[8:50pm] <vagrantc> i have meetings 1-2 times a month on monday evenings.
[8:50pm] <tymp> we'll cut his hair
[8:51pm] <gate> the day really does not matter much for us in columbus. its starting at 10pm thats ruff
[8:51pm] <vagrantc> for one more month.
[8:51pm] <tymp> i say monday because fgpdx is closed then
[8:51pm] <gate> should work for me
[8:51pm] <gate> not sure about skippy
[8:51pm] <tymp> vagrantc : are your meetings unpredictable mondays?
[8:51pm] <vagrantc> should take it to list?
[8:52pm] <tymp> yes
[8:52pm] <gate> at least post a vote to the list
[8:52pm] <vagrantc> tymp: i have one more meeting this coming monday.
[8:52pm] <gate> are we able to start earlier if we move to monday
[8:52pm] <tymp> vagrantc : so that's perfect
[8:52pm] <tymp> gate : that was the idea
[8:52pm] <vagrantc> gate: that was my goal- to get the meeting earlier.
[8:53pm] <gate> I think an hour is all the is needed. so 9 est
[8:53pm] <tymp> gate : uh, are you two hours ahead of us?
[8:53pm] <vagrantc> till the end of october, i could probably meet most mondays at ... 5pm -0700
[8:53pm] <gate> 3 I think. its justg about 12 here
[8:53pm] <tymp> gate : ok
[8:53pm] <tymp> i think 5-7 / 8-10 sounds better ?
[8:54pm] <tymp> to the list with that
[8:54pm] <vagrantc> yes.
[8:54pm] <tymp> svn is tabled?
[8:54pm] <gate> ok
[8:54pm] <tymp> we can go back to...
[8:54pm] <tymp> or, nah
[8:54pm] <vagrantc> 5 minutes left.
[8:54pm] <vagrantc> thereabouts
[8:54pm] <tymp> just get the next meeting straight
[8:55pm] <tymp> in brief, i think, clearly, more communication from more perspectives will be the best thing that can happen toward the future
[8:55pm] <tymp> can anyone summarize this?  
[8:55pm] <tymp> commit : post log
[8:56pm] <tymp> who wants to facilitate next
[8:56pm] <tymp> and can we get the agenda sooner
[8:56pm] <tymp> i nominate vagrantc to do everything :P
[8:56pm] <tymp> kidding
[8:57pm] <tymp> meho : will you have any time?
[8:57pm] <gate> think we lost everyone
[8:58pm] <tymp> commit : hassle on the list for a facilitator for next meeting and agenda items
[8:58pm] <tymp> did meho leave?
[8:58pm] <tymp> are we there yet?
[8:58pm] <gate> think so
[8:58pm] <vagrantc> 2 minutes to spare!
[8:59pm] <tymp> the meeting is dead, long live the meeting!
[8:59pm] <tymp> under budget.  sweet!
[9:02pm] <gate> ok, I started my simple-ccd build some its bed time
[9:02pm] <gate> night
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